>> Hi.

I'm Lewis Howes, New York Times best-selling author and entrepreneur.

And welcome to "The School of Greatness," where we interview the most influential minds in the world to inspire you to live your best life today.

In this episode, I'm joined by Nedra Glover Tawwab, a respected therapist and New York Times best-selling author, known for her work on boundaries and healthy relationships.

We discuss how to spot toxic behaviors in relationships, how to recognize abuse, and establish healthy connections, learn practical strategies for setting healthy standards, and building stronger, more fulfilling relationships.

I'm so glad you're here today.

Now let's dive in and let the class begin.

♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ Can you share with me and us some of the key signs, like, if these few things are happening, you're definitely in some type of a relationship that is maybe toxic or unhealthy?

Are there a few keys that we should be looking for?

>> Big signs -- verbal abuse... >> Uh-huh.

>> ...emotional abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse.

>> Okay.

>> There are things outside of that.

Like, we may experience emotional abuse.

I would lump that into -- or manipulation.

I would lump that into emotional abuse.

We may have some demeaning.

I might lump that into emotional abuse.

But sometimes we're not aware because it's so normal in the relationship.

>> We're so familiar with this behavior, right?

>> And from a particular person, right?

This person is always yelling.

This person always pushes people.

This person always says mean things.

So, you chop it up as this is how they are.

But that behavior can be abusive.

>> Yes.

>> That behavior can be unhealthy, not just for the relationship they're in with you, but any relationship.

I couldn't go to the doctor and push my doctor or yell at the doctor.

That would be a crime.

>> Right!

But why do we allow our loving, intimate partner that we're supposed to love the most commit these things against us verbally, emotionally, sexually consistently?

Why do we allow these things to happen so frequently?

>> Because of the trust and connection that has been built.

There was a process of getting to this space.

When we have long-term relationships or intimate relationships with people, of course, day one, they can't say, "Oh, I'm going to cuss you out, and we'll be in this relationship for ten years."

But maybe after a while of building trust and learning a person and learning how you can manipulate the situation, that's when we start to see abuse.

>> Mm!

>> We start to see it when there is a level of trust that is now being broken by this person.

It's not always right away.

And the signs, they are not like... [ Gasps ] It's sometimes very, like, "Oh, my gosh, is this happening?

Is this person really lying about this thing?

Is this person really trying to sabotage me?"

It's almost like we start to think, "Is this real?"

>> Mm!

>> "Is this problematic?"

You know, if you put in, you know, key search terms like "narcissism," "gaslighting," it's like lists of stuff because we're all wondering, like, "Am I really being abused?"

We have to learn to trust ourselves and what we're feeling in those situations.

Sometimes we don't need any more information.

We don't need to read any more articles.

>> Yeah.

>> We don't need to read anything else.

It's like, "They yelled at me in front of a room of peo..." I mean, it's like, what are we waiting for?

What do we need to happen to say that this situation is unhealthy and out of control?

>> Yeah, and it's not okay.

>> It's not okay.

>> What does it say about us when we allow these behaviors to happen in intimacy continuously, as opposed to saying, "Okay, you raising your voice and yelling at me does not work for me.

I've never seen this behavior before.

This is something that is against my boundary, and that won't work for me moving forward.

And let's create an agreement that we don't do this."

What does it say about us when we allow bad behavior continuously over time?

Is it we haven't healed something, that we don't believe in ourselves?

We lack self-worth?

What is that?

>> I think it could say many different things.

>> Uh-huh.

>> It could be we're unhealed.

It could be we are replaying some trauma we've already had, or we're familiar with chaos, and this person is re-creating it in a way.

It could also mean that we see some potential in this person.

>> Mm.

>> We know those good parts, and we're just waiting for those things to come back.

Like, "I know they're in there."

It's also sometimes what we believe happens in relationships.

No relationship is easy.

>> Is perfect or easy.

>> Yeah, or perfect.

It's like, "Yeah, no relationship is perfect.

But I don't know if that's the imperfect thing."

>> Right.

That's not what I should accept.

>> Right.

That's not the imperfect thing that you want, so... >> Right.

>> There are so many things.

I remember there used to be a thing.

"If you loved yourself more, you wouldn't be in bad relationships."

There are people who really love themselves, and they're still in bad relationships because they really love that person, too.

And they're hoping.

You know, sometimes we stay because we hope that this situation will change.

We hope that this person will get better.

So, it's not always, you know, trauma.

It's like, you know, wishful thinking.

It's...we want things to improve.

>> How often does wishful thinking and hoping in a relationship with someone who has bad behaviors actually work out, like, where in a year they change into, like, their actual potential, like dating the potential, and hoping they change?

Does that ever happen?

>> Yeah.

I mean, if there's, like, some catastrophic event, right?

Like, you have this moment of, "Oh, my gosh, I almost thought the world was over, and I changed as a human."

Or, you know, things happen in people's lives where they decide to change.

It's not us doing the work for them.

They have this moment.

When does that happen in our relationships?

I don't know.

I feel like I'm in relationships with unchanged people, and I'm in relationships with people who have changed.

So, it's not really up to me what that timing is.

>> Sure, but in intimacy, if someone's got bad behavior, maybe you want something to change so they could be a better person.

But if it's bad behavior that's causing verbal, emotional, or sexual abuse, it sounds like -- I mean, you wrote in here, "You can't change people.

So, don't hold your breath waiting for them to change."

>> Mm-hmm.

>> "You can only control your side of the street."

>> Mm-hmm.

>> And it sounds to me, unless there's some type of massive breakdown, where they lose their job or near-death experience or, you know, someone in their family dies, that has the chance of opening them up for change.

But even then, they might stay, like, stuck in a box, right?

>> Mm-hmm.

>> So, I hear you saying, it's like you have this hope that people will change, and you love other aspects of them.

But should we stay in intimate relationships where there is abuse, and how much abuse should we handle or take until we create a boundary or move on?

>> Mm... >> The intimate relationships, like, you know... >> I think that "enough" point is when your safety is compromised.

>> Right.

>> When people talk to me about being in unhealthy relationships that are emotionally, verbally, or physically abusive, I often say, "Do you feel safe?"

When you no longer feel safe sleeping in the house with someone, safe physically, safe emotionally, they will call something within you.

I think it start-- you're at the point of, you know, safety first.

You know, I think that was like an elementary-school sort of -- safety first!

>> Yeah.

>> You know, you have to think about, will you be alive at the end of this?

How will you live if something else happens in this relationship?

Not all bad relationships are to that extent, but there are some of them where it's like, you know, if this happened again, I don't know if you'll make it through.

>> Right.

Yeah.

Safety for sure.

And when it feels like your nervous system doesn't feel safe because you're being manipulated or there's some gaslighting happening... >> Mm-hmm.

>> ...is that the same type of safety, when you're just like, "Huh.

Am I safe with myself?

They're not going to physically harm me, but I'm feeling, like, this gaslighting manipulation."

Is that also something we should look out for?

>> Absolutely.

I think with gaslighting, there's a lot of questioning of who you are and what you think about the situation.

The emotional breakthrough for me with gaslighting was, it doesn't work anymore.

>> Right.

>> Like, I'm so sure of what happened... >> The truth, yeah, yeah.

>> I'm so sure of the truth, there's nothing you can say.

I'm not even explaining the situation to you for you to break down the pieces and tell me it's not true anymore.

It doesn't even matter what your interpretation is.

It took a lot of work to get there with people who gaslight because their whole plan is like, "How do I dissect this story?

How do I make this person think that, you know, I did this, but I didn't really do it, or I did it with this intention when..." You know, like, all of those things, and, you know, a big part of gaslighting is people are trying to have their way with you.

They're using tactics and skills that are unhealthy.

When you have a relationship with someone who refuses to be accountable, they are saying, "I can't accept who I am, so I am going to make you think I'm something else."

>> Wow.

They refuse to be accountable.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> So, they try to put the blame on someone else, essentially, right?

So, they don't have to take responsibility for what happened.

>> Yeah.

>> Is that what it is?

Is that what gaslighting essentially is or...?

>> Yeah, it's, you know, I was speaking with someone earlier who said, "It's easier to see yourself as a bad person in hindsight."

Like, "Man, when I was 12, I was bad," you know?

>> Right, right.

>> But today, would I say that about myself, even if I did something?

Like, do I want to, like, can I sleep at night knowing I was bad today?

>> Right.

>> And so it might be easier for me to say, "No, I'm great and wonderful today and always," because that just makes me be able to live with myself.

>> Interesting.

>> Some things, it's just...

It's hard to put together.

It's hard to put together.

>> It's hard to face that you're making a bad decision.

Even when you do something wrong, you could justify why it's good, right?

>> Mm-hmm.

>> You could, like, somehow justify, "Well, they did this.

I'm going to do this bad thing, but it's not bad because they deserved it" or whatever, right?

It's like you can justify it in some way, as opposed to say, "I'm a bad person," or "I made a bad decision in this moment."

>> Yes.

>> That's what can happen.

Interesting.

So, how do we know when we are experiencing gaslighting from someone else?

>> When their version of reality and your version of reality is not the same thing, it's not necessarily an indicator of gaslighting.

What's a bigger indicator is when that is always the case.

There is no congruence in "I said this.

You said that."

It's like, "No, that wasn't..." When you start to notice the inconsistencies on a constant basis in the stories and what happened and why, you may be experiencing some form of gaslighting, whether that's, you know, to the mass extent or to a lower extent.

You know, I think there are some normal levels of gaslighting, right?

Like, lying and, you know, like these things we do because it's like, "Ooh, no, I didn't take it."

And it's like, "Well, no one else was here."

You know, like, but then there are these other, like, psychological twists that people can do that are really disruptive to your spirit or really disruptive to your life.

And I think when you start to notice that on a consistent basis with a particular person, you have to see that as "There is no honesty here, and I have to start to trust myself."

>> Ah, but what if you don't trust yourself?

How do you learn to build that trust back with you?

>> The way that we typically try to do it, we try to share that story with other people.

We try to get people to see our side of it, to validate what we're experiencing, and hopefully that validation we receive from others starts to be a way that we can start to validate ourselves.

So, as Lewis tells me more and more, "Yes, I can't believe they did that," maybe the next time it happens, hopefully that becomes your internal voice.

"I can't believe they're doing this.

Wow.

This isn't okay."

You know, in therapy sometimes, I will ask people.

I will hear the manipulation.

I'll hear them expressing, like, someone is gaslighting them.

And I'll say, "What do you call the behavior they're engaged in?"

And they're like, "Manipulation."

Mm.

>> Mm.

>> Mm.

"So, you see that you're being manipulated.

Why would they do that?

Let's focus on being manipulated.

We don't have to go into the backstory of why they're doing it.

You're being manipulated.

What do you want to do with that?"

That's tough.

>> Yeah.

>> "This person you love is trying to get you to do something that you've said no, and they keep asking you.

Or you let them have this one thing.

Now they want seven things.

You all had an issue, and they have a whole different story about the issue.

They're telling other people something different.

How does it feel to you that this person is now doing that to you?"

>> Mm.

>> "I'm hurt."

That hurts.

"How does that make you feel about the relationship?

Is this something you want to address with them?

Is this something you just want to keep in your pocket and say, 'Okay, let's see what happens from here?'

How do you want to proceed?"

>> Yeah.

What do you think is the biggest mistake a lot of people make getting into an intimate relationship?

Because I feel like these things come out 6 to 12 months later, when you're in intimacy sometimes.

Not every relationship, but it seems like people are good, generally good, and have good intentions in the beginning, and then the gaslighting and manipulation comes out later.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> What do you feel like people get wrong about entering a relationship so that there is a healthy, conscious relationship to occur later?

>> I don't think we're noticing enough because we're seeing what we want to see, right?

We're seeing all the wonderful things -- great hair, great eyes, job, car, whatever.

>> [ Laughing ] Right!

>> And I think the other thing is, we're not asking the right questions.

>> What questions should we be asking?

>> Why did your last relationship end?

How is your relationship with your parents?

>> Mm.

>> How many friends do you have, and how are your relationships with them?

>> Mm.

>> Who do you share your deepest secrets to?

You know, the work that we have to do in our relationships with people, it's almost like we get upset with them for making us do the work, when, really, they are just being themselves.

>> Yes.

>> If you don't want to be treated like a child, how do you become more of an adult?

>> Create boundaries.

>> You create those boundaries.

So, when your mom is like, "Tell me about your girlfriend," you're like, "I don't...I don't want to talk about it."

>> Mm-hmm.

>> And then your mom is like, "Oh, he doesn't have to tell me everything anymore."

>> Right, exactly.

>> So, it's you doing that work.

Your mom can always ask, and you can always place that boundary.

>> Exactly.

And just say, "I don't want to talk about it right now, Mom.

Let's talk about something else."

>> Yeah.

>> Or whatever.

>> "I don't need you to wash my clothes.

I don't need you to figure out what I'm doing with my...

I don't..." You have to be the person to say that... >> Sure.

>> ...because your mom is operating in the capacity that she knows.

>> Absolutely.

Yeah.

That's beautiful.

What else do you think people get wrong about family dynamics -- siblings, parents, kids?

And what else do we need to know about this?

>> One of the things we get wrong is that if we are honest about what the relationship is, that we will lose our love for the person.

>> Can you give me an example?

>> If I say my mother was unkind, that means I don't love her.

No, that doesn't mean you don't love her.

It just means she was unkind, maybe sometimes, maybe all the time.

I don't know, but you can still love people who do things to you or who cause you to feel a certain way.

And sometimes we don't know that.

We think if we say anything bad about someone, it means that we don't love them, that we're betraying them.

And both of those things can exist.

You know, when I find people talking about their parents, they will say all of these nice qualities because they're trying to make them not seem like a bad person.

When we talk about our partners, we'll say, "You know, I really love this person.

They've been there for me.

They always listen to me.

And then..." You know, like, we are trying to say, "I really love them.

And I don't want to say anything bad about them."

And we don't have to protect the truth.

We don't have to protect the person from everything that we feel about them.

One thing we've been practicing in our house -- I have two daughters, and they are at that age where they bicker all the time, and "Oh, she's annoying."

And I say, "Everyone in this house is annoying.

You, your sister, your dad, the dog, the TV sometimes is too loud."

This is normal in relationships.

We're not going to always get it right.

And if we have an expectation of perfection in a relationship?

"Sometimes I'm going to say the wrong thing, and I want you to be able to -- You know what?

Sometimes you say the wrong thing.

Sometimes you're unkind.

Sometimes you annoy me.

Sometimes..." That happens in relationships, and we should be able to talk about the totality of the relationship, not just the good parts.

And, you know, they're really amazing in these ways.

But aunties and uncles, human beings, have no clue what they're doing.

We have an expectation based on their role.

We think, "Oh, my gosh," once you become a mother, there's all of these things.

Once you become a father, once you become an uncle, like, you'll know how to communicate with kids.

No!

I don't know how to... You know, like, so these things, these expectations.

Not that they're unreasonable, but the person can't, you know, they can't meet it.

They don't grow up.

They have their own, you know, demons they're fighting.

It's not all about all of the things going well all the time.

A normal part of relationships is having some sort of conflict.

We can't watch a movie without a little bit of conflict.

>> I know.

You need it.

>> Yeah, even a good, old rom-com.

You need that conflict.

>> Right.

You need it.

>> Yeah.

So, it's a part of being in relationship that it doesn't have to be perfect to exist.

We can talk about all parts of it.

It doesn't mean that the relationship is bad, or we don't want to be in it.

>> Sure.

>> It just means that we're being honest.

>> Where do you struggle the most in your relationships, in terms of how you interpret relationships, how you react and respond?

You're in this work constantly.

You're working with people who are in breakdown, who are struggling, who are, you know, coming to you for guidance.

But where do you see that you could grow the most personally in relationships?

>> I think having more understanding for people who are unwilling to do the work, because I'm around people constantly who are doing the work.

I'm a therapist, so everyone that I see is doing the work.

A lot of people that I talk to on podcasts or, you know, in my online community, they're trying to do the work.

So, to be in personal relationships where they're like, "I'm fine.

It's you."

[ Both laugh ] >> It's hard to be compassionate about that.

>> It's like, "What?

We have all of this information available."

Yeah, so, that piece, that, like, holding that grace of, it hasn't always been easy for me.

And it takes a lot of self-compassion and grace to get to a point of saying, "You know what?

I did mess up."

And I have to remember that... >> Right.

>> ...because everybody's not in that space.

And so, some of those personal relationships, it's like, "Yeah, they're not in that space."

And that's okay.

I haven't always been in that space.

How dare I look down on someone like, "Ah!

Look at me now.

I'm in a better space."

It's like, "I get it.

It's tough."

>> Yeah, yeah.

>> Because I wish sometimes I could unsee stuff, you know?

It's like I wish I didn't care about things so much anymore.

Like, "Gosh, I wish that thing didn't make me sad," because it was a good life to not feel some things.

Relationships, they were bad, but they were better because you had them.

So, I think that, you know, this knowing sometime is like, "Ugh, it's tough."

>> The awareness.

>> The awareness.

>> Consciousness, seeing it -- I hear you.

Well, I'm excited about your book, "Drama Free: A Guide to Managing Unhealthy Family Relationships."

I think a lot of people can relate to experiencing this now or at some point in their life, dealing with someone in their family that was maybe unhealthy or just they struggled to really mend certain things.

That's what I believe we're all seeking.

We all want.

We want more of that.

Even if it's familiar to be in chaos, I don't think that's our true nature.

That's just familiarity and a comfort zone.

But it's time to break free of that.

It's time to become drama free and break free of the unhealthy relationships.

So, I'm very excited about the book.

Where can we go to support you, follow you, get the book, learn more about these things?

>> My website, nedratawwab.com, everything is there.

From there you will be connected to my socials, to workshops, worksheets, everything that I'm doing.

>> Okay, cool -- nedratawwab.com will have it all linked up.

Your Instagram is amazing, as well.

I love everything you post over there.

So, make sure you guys go follow on social media, as well.

I asked you this question before, but we were virtual.

So, I'm curious if there's a different response.

>> Okay.

>> It's a question I ask everyone at the end called the Three Truths.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> So, imagine a hypothetical scenario.

It's your last day on Earth, many years away.

You live as long as you want to live, but it's the last day.

>> I'm 200.

>> Live 200, 500.

Doesn't matter to me.

And you experience life on your terms.

You create what you want.

You have the life you want.

You write more books.

You help more people.

Whatever you want to do, you live that life.

But for whatever reason, all of your work and your message has to go with you when you pass.

This book, social media, AI, whatever you create in the future is gone.

So, we don't have your words anymore, your message.

But you get to leave three lessons behind, three things you know to be true from your experience that you would share as lessons for the world to think about.

What would be those Three Truths for you?

>> I would say live authentically.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> Create your life.

And be present.

>> I love all three of those.

Live authentically, create your life, and be present.

Before I ask the final question, Nedra, I want to acknowledge you again for your light.

You bring such a light to the world with your work, with your teaching, with your one-on-one practice, but also the messages you bring to all of us.

And I'm so grateful that you are here to be of service to humanity, because we need people like you.

So, I really acknowledge you for your gifts, your unique experiences, your perspective, and your ability to serve in the unique way that you do.

It's beautiful.

So, thank you.

My final question is, what's your definition of greatness?

>> Definition of greatness?

You know, I think love.

>> Mm.

>> Love is the definition of greatness.

Without that, you know, what is life if we can't have love?

>> There you go.

Nedra, thanks so much.

Appreciate you.

Thank you.

We hope you enjoyed this episode and found it valuable.

Stay tuned for more from "The School of Greatness" coming soon on public television.

Again, I'm Lewis Howes.

And if no one has told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

Now it's time to go out there and do something great.

If you'd like to continue on the journey of greatness with me, please check out my website, lewishowes.com, where you'll find over 1,000 episodes of "The School of Greatness" show, as well as tools and resources to support you in living your best life.

>> The online course Find Your Greatness is available for $19.

Drawn from the lessons Lewis Howes shares in "The School of Greatness," this interactive course will guide you through a step-by-step process to discover your strengths, connect to your passion and purpose, and help create your own blueprint for greatness.

To order, go to lewishowes.com/tv.

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