>> THIS WEEK AMERICANS IN SIX STATES VOTED IN PRIMARY TO CHOOSE THEIR PARTY'S CANDIDATES FOR THE UPCOMING FALL ELECTIONS.

SO WHAT DID THE RESULTS REVEAL?

TRUMP-ENDORSED CANDIDATES WERE SUCCESSFUL DESPITE HIS LOW APPROVAL RATINGS.

AND THE DEMOCRATIC CONTEST HIGHLIGHTED THE DIVIDE BETWEEN PROGRESSIVE AND MODERATES.

WELL, OUR NEXT GUEST SAYS WISCONSIN OFFERS A BLUEPRINT FOR REBUILDING DEMOCRATIC POWER FROM THE GROUND UP.

BEN WIKLER IS THE STATE'S FORMER DEMOCRATIC CHAIR, AND HE'S JOINING NICHELLE MARTIN NOW.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

BEN WIKLER, THANKS SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

>> LOTS OF NEWS TO TALK ABOUT, BUT I WANT TO START WITH YOUR BOOK TITLED "THIS IS THE PLAN, HOW TO END AMERICA'S MELT DOWN AND SAVE DEMOCRACY. "

YOU RAN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN WISCONSIN FOR SIX YEARS.

AND OUT OF THAT EXPERIENCE YOU HAVE THE NOTION THAT, YOU KNOW, AS WISCONSIN GOES, SO GOES THE COUNTRY AND WISCONSIN HAS A LOT TO OFFER THE COUNTRY.

SO THE FIRST QUESTION I WANTED TO ASK YOU IS WHAT IS THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY DOING WRONG?

>> WELL, AT A VERY BASIC LEVEL, AS A COUNTRY WE'VE ALL BEEN PULLED APART FROM EACH OTHER.

WE'VE PULLED INTO OUR PHONES.

COMMUNITY HAS COLLAPSED AROUND THE NATION.

PEOPLE ARE LESS INVOLVED WITH THEIR NEIGHBORS.

THEY SPEND LESS TIME FACE-TO-FACE WITH EACH OTHER, AND THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY HAS HAD THE EXACT SAME THING OVER THE LAST CENTURY.

IT'S ERODED AND ERODED TO THE POINT WHERE MOST PEOPLE'S EXPERIENCE TO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS FUND-RAISING TEXT MESSAGES AND URGENT E-MAILS AND NEVER ACTUALLY CONVERSATIONS WITH HUMAN BEINGS.

SO THE ESSENTIAL KIND OF ARGUMENT IN MY BOOK ABOUT WHAT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY CAN DO TO CHANGE IS TO SHOW UP AS PART OF A LIFE OF EVERY NEIGHBORHOOD AND EVERY COMMUNITY WHERE PEOPLE INTERACT FACE TO FACE WITH HUMAN BEINGS WHOSE TRUST THEY CAN EARN.

IF YOU DO THAT, THEN YOU'RE ABLE TO PULL PEOPLE TOGETHER IN THE FACE OF, YOU KNOW, ATTACKS BY A WOULD-BE AUTHORITARIAN OR ANY OTHER POLITICAL CRISIS THAT MIGHT COME UP.

THAT'S WHAT WE'VE BEEN DOING IN WISCONSIN, AND IT HAS HAD A HUGE EFFECT YEAR OVER YEAR.

AND THAT'S SOMETHING EVERIEN CAN GET INVOLVED IN CHANGING FOR THE WHOLE COUNTRY.

>> ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS YOU MAKE IN THE BOOK IS ACTUALLY ELECTIONS EVEN IN A COUNTRY AS BIG AS THE UNITED STATES ARE ACTUALLY DECIDED BY VERY FEW PEOPLE.

>> YEAH.

>> HOW DID YOU COME UP WITH THAT REALIZATION?

>> THAT'S THE PARADOX OF THIS MOMENT.

THAT A COUNTRY OF 340 MILLION PEOPLE, AND YET REPUBLICAN CONTROL OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES CAME DOWN TO 7,309 VOTES ACROSS THREE CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS.

AND IT'S EVEN NARROWER THAN THAT BECAUSE THE RULES FOR HOW CONGRESSIONAL MAPS ARE DRAWN, THOSE COME DOWN TO STATE SUPREME COURT RACES AND STATE LEGISLATIVE RACES.

I WRITE IN THE BOOK ABOUT THE NORTH CAROLINA STATE SUPREME COURT RACE IN 2020 THAT CAME DOWN TO 401 VOTES.

ALMOST NO ONE WAS PAYING ATTENTION.

BUT THAT SET IN MOTION A CHAIN OF EVENTS THAT LED TO THE GERRYMANDERING OF THAT STATE THAT GAVE REPUBLICANS THREE ADDITIONAL CONGRESSIONAL FEATS THAT MADE MIKE JOHNSON THE SPEAKER OF THE U. S. HOUSE RIGHT NOW.

THERE ARE ELECTIONS LIKE THAT ALL THE TIME THAT ARE OBSCURE, WHERE A TINY --A TINY SHIFT IN THE NUMBER OF VOTES, THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT TURN OUT, WHO THEY VOTE FOR CAN TOPPLE THE OUTCOME ONE WAY OR ANOTHER THAT END UP HAVING HUGE RIPPLE EFFECTS ON THE ENTIRE AMERICAN SYSTEM.

IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE THE SYSTEM ITSELF, ZERO IN ON THE ALL IMPORTANT, SUPER CLOSE, SUPER OBSCURE ELECTION THAT CAN CHANGE EVERYTHING.

>> ALL RIGHT, LET'S TALK ABOUT WISCONSIN.

AS YOU AND I ARE SPEAKING NOW, BIG RACES JUST DECIDED -- WELL, THE PRIMARIES ANYWAY IN WISCONSIN A CANDIDATE WHO IS DESCRIBED AS THE MORE MODERATE, DAVID CROWLEY.

HE NARROWLY DEFEATED A CANDIDATE WHO IS IDENTIFIED -- SELF-IDENTIFIED --WHAT HAPPENED HERE?

IS THE POLLING JUST WAY OFF, OR WHERE THERE OTHER THINGS THAT AFFECTED THE DYNAMICS OF THE RACE?

>> SO POLLS AND PRIMARIES ARE NOTORIOUSLY INACCURATE AND VERY OFTEN MISS THE MARK.

THAT SAID THE POLLS THAT SUGGESTED FRANCESCA HONG HAD ABOUT 40% IN THE WISCONSIN GOVERNOR'S PRIMARY WERE ACCURATE.

THERE WERE A BUNCH OF UNDECIDED VOTERS AND IT LOOKS LIKE THEY OVERWHELMINGLY WENT FOR DAVID CROWLEY IN THE FINAL STRETCH.

HE WON BY LESS THAN 4,000 VOTES.

BOTH FRANCESCA HONG AND DAVID CROWLEY, WHO'S NOW GOING TO BE THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE FOR GOVERNOR IN WISCONSIN, THEY BOTH GOT MORE VOTES THAN ANY DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE FOR GOVERNOR IN A PRIMARY IN RECENT MEMORY.

THE LEVEL OF OVERALL ENGAGEMENT BY DEMOCRATS, PEOPLE WITH EVERY CANDIDATE FIGHTING FOR CHANGE TO TRY TO MAKE LIFE MORE AFFORDABLE DAVID CROWLEY AND FRANCESCA HONG TALKING ABOUT CHILD CARE, AND HEALTHCARE, AND HOUSING, THINGS EVERYONE NEEDS, THEY GENERATED A HIGH LEVEL OF TORN OUT IN THEIR PRIMARIES.

REPUBLICAN TURN OUT IN WISCONSIN WENT DOWN FROM 2018 TO 2026 IN THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY, AND THAT TELLS ME THERE'S AN ENGAGED ELECTORATE.

THERE'S A TON OF PEOPLE THINKING ABOUT THE POLICIES THAT THEY WANT AND THINKING ABOUT W TO WIN.

THEY MIGHT HAVE DISAGREED IN THAT MOMENT, BUT THE DAY AFTER THE PRIMARY FRANCESCA AND DAVID CROWLEY HAD LUNCH TOGETHER WITH A WHOLE BUNCH OF OTHER DEMOCRATS AND CANDIDATES.

AND THERE'S GOING TO BE UNITY GOING FORWARD.

AND THAT'S WHAT WE SAW IN WISCONSIN.

THAT'S WHAT WE SAW IN MICHIGAN.

I REALLY DO THINK THAT THERE'S A MOVEMENT THAT HAS ITS FIGHT IN THE PRIMARIES, AND THEN WILL COME TOGETHER TO SAY WHAT IS HAPPENING TO THIS WHOLE COUNTRY.

WHAT IS HAPPENING IN STATES LIKE WISCONSIN RIGHT NOW, WHERE THE ECONOMY IS BEING RIGGED FOR THE PEOPLE AT THE TOP AND DEMOCRACY IS BEING SMASHED SO THE PUBLIC CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

THAT IS NOT OKAY.

WE NEED SOMETHING BETTER AND DIFFERENT.

>> ONE OF THE REASONS IT STANDS OUT THIS IS A RESULT IN MICHIGAN WHERE THE MORE PROGRESSIVE CANDIDATE, I'LL SAY IT A DOCTOR PREVAILED OVER THE CANDIDATE WHO IS DESCRIBED AS SORT OF MORE MODERATELY ESTABLISHED CANDIDATE WHO'S A MEMBER OF CONGRESS, AND HE WON THE DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR'S RACE IN MINNESOTA.

THE CURRENT LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR WON THE PRIMARY FOR THE SENATE SEAT WHO'S ALSO DESCRIBED AS THE MORE MODERATE.

SO YOU HAVE THIS KIND OF MIXED RESULT.

SO THE TWO QUESTIONS I HAVE FOR YOU, ARE THESE LANES THAT WE'RE DESCRIBING OVERSTATED?

ARE THESE CANDIDATES REALLY THAT DIFFERENT?

>> THE DIFFERENCES IN A PRIMARY ALWAYS SEEM THE VERY, VERY BIGGEST THE DAY AFTER AND THE DAY BEFORE AND THE DAY OF THE ELECTION ITSELF.

WITHIN A MONTH PEOPLE ARE GOING TO RECOGNIZE THAT IN WISCONSIN, IN MICHIGAN, IN MINNESOTA ALL THESE CANDIDATES ARE RUNNING TO TRY TO UNRIG THE ECONOMY, TRYING TO TO MAKE THIS COUNTRY WORK FOR WORKING PEOPLE, AND THEY'RE TRYING TO FIGHT BACK AGAINST THIS CABAL OF VERY WEALTHY AND POWERFUL PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO RIG THE SYSTEM FOR THEIR OWN CORRUPT BENEFIT.

AND THAT IS - -THAT IS THE MESSAGE THAT WILL REACH, YOU KNOW, VOTERS THAT ARE ON THE FENCE ABOUT WHETHER TO VOTE AND WHICH PARTY TO VOTE FOR.

AND THAT'S A UNIFYING DEMOCRATIC MESSAGE THAT YOU SEE IN THE REDDEST AND PURPLEST AND BLUEST PLACES ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

THAT IS THE CENTRAL QUESTION IN THIS ELECTION RIGHT FOR YOU.

YOU KNOW, TRUMP IS BUILDING ARCHES TO HIMSELF AND BALLROOMS AND, YOU KNOW, HANDING OUT BILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO HIS FRIENDS AND SAYING THAT HE LOVES INFLATION AND HE LAUGHS AT THE LITTLE MAN WITH THE $4 GAS THAT YOU TALKS ABOUT, AND HE GETS EVERY SINGLE REPUBLICAN TO RUPPER STAMP THE WAR IN IRAN THAT HAS SENT THE COST OF GROCERIES AND GAS SPIRALING.

HE'S JUST VERY CLEARLY ON THE SIDE OF HIMSELF AND HIS FRIENDS AT EVERYBODY'S EXPENSE.

AND IN THE STATES -- IN A STATE THE SOMETIMES LIKE WISCONSIN AND MICHIGAN THAT VOTED FOR TRUMP TWICE, THERE'S A REAL SENSE THAT PEOPLE HAVE GIVEN TRUMP A SHOT.

IT IS NOT WORKING.

THE PROBLEMS THAT THEY ARE CRYING OUT TO BE ADDRESSED IN THEIR OWN LIVES WITH HOW INCREDIBLY HARD IT IS TO BE ABLE TO AFFORD CHILD CARE IF YOU'RE A PARENT, THEY WANT SOMEONE WHO'S ACTUALLY GOING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT.

AND WHEREVER YOU LAND WITHIN THE DEMOCRATIC SPECTRUM, EVEN SOME INDEPENDENT CANDIDATES, THERE'S A LASER FOCUS DELIVERING FOR WORKING FOLKS THAT I THINK IS GOING TO CARRY FOR DEMOCRATS IN 2026.

AND ALL OF THAT INFORMS WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NATIONWIDE IN 2028.

>> OKAY, SO I STARTED ASKING WHAT HAVE DEMOCRATS BEEN DOING WRONG, WHAT HAVE REPUBLICANS BEEN DOING RIGHT?

OR AT LEAST THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION --WHAT HAS PRESIDENT TRUMP AS A CANDIDATE, WHAT HAS HE BEEN DOING RIGHT TO PERSUADE THIS MANY PEOPLE HE'S ON THEIR SIDE?

>> FIRST, IT'S VERY CLEAR THAT TRUMP AS A PRESIDENT RIGHT NOW IS NOT FOLLOWING THROUGH ON HIS CAMPAIGN PROMISES.

HE'S NOT DELIVERING PEOPLE ON HIS WILDLY UNPOPULAR --PEOPLE ARE FURIOUS WHAT HE AND HIS KIND OF WHOLE MAGA TEAM IS DOING.

BUT HE DID WIN THE ELECTION, AND YOU HAVE TO ASK YOURSELF WHY THAT IS.

ESSENTIALLY THE PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T HEAR FROM EITHER CANDIDATE THEY KNEW IN THEIR GUT IT WASN'T WORKING AND THEY WERE THE PEOPLE WHO CHANGED THE DHANL.

AND THEY'RE ALREADY READY TO CHANGE THE CHANNEL AGAIN BECAUSE TRUMP HAS NOT DELIVER WHAT PEOPLE ARE ASKING FOR.

I THINK THERE'S A DEEPER DYSFUNCTION, THOUGH.

AND I THINK THE REPUBLICAN STRATEGY HAS FED INTO THIS DYSFUNCTION.

THE DYSFUNCTION IS THAT OUR GOVERNMENT IS RIGGED TO NOT DELIVER CHANGE THAT BENEFITS REGULAR FOLKS ECONOMICALLY.

THERE'S ALL THESE WAYS TO BE ABLE TO BLOCK IT.

YOU HAVE A U. S. SUPREME COURT THAT IS ESSENTIALLY CARRYING OUT A FAR-RIGHT INCORPORATED AJENLD ADAY BY DAY.

YOU HAVE A U. S. SENATE THAT HAS A FILIBUSTER THAT ALLOWS A HANDFUL OF SENATORS TO BLOCK, YOU KNOW, ANYTHING THAT THEY THINK MIGHT HELP THEM GAIN POWER IN THE NEXT ELECTION.

YOU HAVE A U. S. HOUSE THAT IS ULTRA-GERRYMANDERED.

YOU HAVE KRZS UNITED THAT ALLOWS UNLIMITED CORPORATE SPENDING.

THE EFFECT OF ALL OF THAT WHEN REPUBLICANS COME IN THEY CAN GIVE TAX CUTS TO THE RICH, THEY CAN APPOINT RIGHT WING JUDGES.

THOSE ARE THEIR TOP TWO AGENDA ITEMS, SO THE RIGHT GETS WHAT IT WANTS.

EVENTUALLY THINGS GO HAYWIRE.

PEOPLE VOTE DEMOCRATS INTO OFFICE AND DEMOCRATS CAN'T DELIVER ON BIG PARTS OF THEIR AGENDA.

SO VOTERS ASKING FOR CHANGE THEY CAN'T GET IT FROM DEMOCRATS BECAUSE THE SYSTEM IS BUILT TO BLOCK THE CHANGE.

AND WHEN REPUBLICANS COME IN, THEY CHANGES COME THEY DON'T LIKE.

AND THAT'S WHY WE HAVE CHANGE ELECTION AFTER CHANGE ELECTION WITHOUT THE CHANGES PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY CRYING OUT FOR.

THAT TO ME IS A FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM IN OUR SYSTEM.

AND A LOT OF THE FOCUS IN MY BOOK IS HOW WE UNRIG THE SYSTEM TO ALLOW DEMOCRACY TO ACTUALLY HAPPEN SO PEOPLE CAN GET WHAT THEY'RE VOTING FOR.

>> WHAT I'M CURIOUS ABOUT IS WHY HAVEN'T DEMOCRATS DONE A BETTER JOB OF MAKING THAT CASE?

YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT OBAMA, FOR EXAMPLE, I MEAN HE CAME IN WITH A MANDATE, NO QUESTION.

HE CAME IN WITH CONTROL OF BOTH HOUSES OF CONGRESS, BUT SOMEHOW HE DIDN'T SOLIDIFY THAT BY MAKING, YOU KNOW, VOTING RIGHTS, FOR EXAMPLE, A VOTING ISSUE.

BY MAKING THE SUPREME COURT A VOTING ISSUE, AND NEITHER DID JOE BIDEN.

WHY HAVE DEMOCRATS NOT DONE A BETTER JOB OF MAKING THESE VOTING ISSUES?

IF YOU COULD SEE THIS PATTERN, WHY CAN'T OTHER, YOU KNOW, NATIONAL DEMOCRATS?

>> SO MANY DEMOCRATS GET INVOLVED IN POLITICS, AND I KNOW THIS MIGHT SOUND INCREDIBLY IDEALISTIC TO PEOPLE WHO ARE CYNICAL AND I UNDERSTAND THE CYNICISM.

SO MANY DEMOCRATS GET INVOLVED, WHAT WAKES THEM UP EVERY DAY THEY WANT TO MAKE SURE KIDS CAN GET THE HEALTHCARE THEY NEED, THAT PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING TO DIE BECAUSE THEY CAN'T AFFORD THE COST OF AN INHALER.

I SAY THIS ONE OF MY MOM'S CLOSEST FRIENDS DIED OF AN ASTHMA ATTACK IN HER CAR.

SHE COULDN'T AFFORD IT.

PEOPLE VOTE ON HEALTHCARE.

THEY CAN SEE HOW BROKEN AND RIDICULOUS OUR HEALTHCARE CENTER IS.

IT'S A PROFIT CENTER RATHER THAN FOCUSED ON ENSURING PEOPLE CAN GET CARE WHEN THEY'RE SICK WITHOUT GOING BROKE.

AND SO WHEN DEMOCRATS COME IN IT IS OVERWHELMINGLY OVER AND OVER THE CASE THAT THE NUMBER ONE ISSUE THAT THEY PUSH THROUGH IS ECONOMIC POLICIES, HEALTHCARE POLICIES, AND THEY DON'T ADDRESS THE STRUCTURAL ISSUE BECAUSE THE STRUCTURE OF THE SYSTEM THAT'S THE STUFF THEY HAVE TO DIENLD OF GET THROUGH TO GET TO THE GOOD STUFF, WHICH IS REALLY DELIVERING POLICY CHANGE FOR PEOPLE.

FOR THE RIGHT THE FOCUS IS WINNING AND CONTROL.

SO WHEN REPUBLICANS COME IN YOU HAVE WHAT SCOTT WALKER DID IN MY STATE IN WISCONSIN.

HE GOT ELECTED AND IMMEDIATELY SMASHED UNIONS, RIGGED LEGISLATIVE MAPS, SUPPRESSED VOTES.

THE SAME THING THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS BEEN TRYING TO DO NATIONWIDE.

THEY TRY TO SHORT CIRCUIT DEMOCRACY WHILE THEY GIVE OUT TAX CUTS -- >> FRIENDLY AMENDMENT THERE.

SCOTT WALKER, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY BUSTED THE PUBLIC SERVICE UNIONS EXCEPT THE POLICE AND FIRE DEPARTMENTS.

>> EXCEPT THE POLICE AND FIRE DEPARTMENTS, THAT'S RIGHT.

FIRST HE WENT AFTER THE TEACHERS UNIONS, THE CIVIL SERVICE UNIONS OTHER THAN POLICE AND FIRE AND PRIVATE SECTOR UNION.

IT WAS DIVIDE AND CONQUER AS HE TOLD A BILLIONAIRE DONOR.

THAT WAS HIS STRATEGY.

NOW, THE QUESTION WHY DEMOCRATS CAN'T GET IT TOGETHER TO FOCUS ON THESE STRUCTURAL THINGS, OFTEN BY THE TIME THEY GET TO THEM THE POLITICAL CAPITAL IS SPENT, THEY'RE FOCUSED ON THE NEXT ELECTION.

SOMETIMES THEY CAN'T GET ENOUGH VOTES.

SOMETIMES DEMOCRATS JUST WANT TO BREATHE A SIGH OF RELIEF THAT THE DANGER IS OVER BECAUSE TRUMP WAS DEFEATED IN 2020.

THEY WANT TO MOVE ONTO OTHER THINGS.

I ARGUE IN THE BOOK I BELIEVE TO MY CORE THAT THE DEMOCRATS NEED TO FOCUS ON THESE STRUCTURAL THINGS.

AND IT'S NOT NECESSARILY THE CENTER PIECE OF THE CAMPAIGN TO SAY YOU'RE GOING TO PASS A NEW VOTING RIGHTS ACT, BUT IT HAS TO BE ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS THAT YOU DO.

AND IN THE HOUSE IT IS THE FIRST THING THAT THEY'VE DONE IN MULTIPLE SESSIONS OF CONGRESS IS PASS A MAJOR BLOCKBUSTER VOTING RIGHTS BILL THAT WOULD BAN PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING NATIONWIDE, BUT IT DIES IN THE U. S. SENATE.

THAT MEANS IF YOU NEED IT, IF YOU WANT IT TO BECOME LAW, THIS MIGHT SOUND HOPELESSLY WONKY TO PEOPLE WHO DON'T PAY ATTENTION TO POLITICS.

THEY WANT POLITICS TO LEAVE THEM ALONE.

IF YOU WANT TO ENSURE DEMOCRACY SURVIVES AND CAN BENEFIT REGULAR FOLKS WHEREBY, YOU HAVE TO CHANGE THE RULES OF THE FILIBUSTER AND I ARGUE REFORM THE SUPREME COURT WHICH IS PLAYING WHACK AA MOLE WITH VOTING RIGHTS.

>> THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WOULD SAY THE ISSUE IS TWO FOLD.

ONE THAT DEMOCRATS ARE AFRAID OF RACE, THAT THEY TREAT AFRICAN AMERICANS IN PARTICULARLY AND PERHAPS LATINOS AS WELL OR PEOPLE OF COLOR THE SAME WAY REPUBLICANS HAVE TREATED CHRISTIAN EVANGELICALS.

PLEASE DON'T BOTHER US THE REST OF THE YEAR, SO IT'S RAISED.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> I WOULD SAY THAT DEMOCRATS HAVE COME SO AGONIZINGLY CLOSE TO ACTUALLY GETTING THIS DONE, AND IN 2021 THERE WERE TWO U. S. SENATORS WHO WERE NOT READY TO CHANGE THE FILIBUSTER, WHICH, BY THE WAY, YOU KNOW, FOR THE FIRST 80 YEARS THE FILIBUSTER WAS ONLY EVER USED TO DEFEAT CIVIL RIGHTS LEGISLATION.

THAT THIS IS A COALITION PARTY WHERE THE VAST MAJORITY OF DEMOCRATS DO UNDERSTAND THE CENTRAL ROLE THAT RACISM AND RACIST ATTACKS HAVE PLAYED IN THE RIGHT'S DIVIDE AND CONQUER STRATEGY TO ENRICH THE RICH.

IT MEANS IN PRIMARY ELECTIONS THAT ARE HAPPENING ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND WILL HAPPEN AGAIN IN 2028, IF YOU'RE AN ENGAGED DEMOCRATIC VOTER, YOU'VE GOT TO ASK THE CANDIDATES WHETHER THEY'RE WILLING TO TAKE ACTION TO CHANGE THE SYSTEM ITSELF, TO ENSURE THAT NO MATTER YOUR RACE THAT EVERYONE ACTUALLY HAS A VOTE, THAT EVERYONE'S VOTE ACTUALLY COUNTS.

YOU HAVE TO ASK WHETHER THEY'RE WILLING TO CHANGE A SYSTEM THAT BENEFITS THE BIGGEST DONORS INSTEAD OF THE GENERAL PUBLIC.

BUT MOST DEMOCRATS ALREADY ARE.

WE ARE VERY CLOSE TO BEING ABLE TO GET WHERE WE NEED TO MAKE STRUCTURAL REFORMS.

>> I'M GOING TO ASK YOU YOU TO TELL US THE PLAN BECAUSE THIS IS THE TITLE OF YOUR BOOK "THIS IS THE PLAN. "

WHAT'S YOUR PLAN?

>> THE FIRST FIRE IN THIS MOMENT IS A GOVERNMENT THAT IS TESTING OUT WAYS TO SUBVERT DEMOCRACY ITSELF, TO STOP THE PUBLIC FROM BEING ABLE TO CHOOSE WHO WIELDS POWER, WHO HOLDS OFFICE.

AND THE MOST CRITICAL SAFEGUARD AGAINST AN AUTHORITARIAN ALL THE WAY BREAK THROUGH IN THIS COUNTRY IS ACTUALLY STATE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENTS IN 2026.

AND THE REASON FOR THAT IS THE CONSTITUTION PUTS THE CONTROL OF THE ELECTION SYSTEM INTO THE HANDS OF STATE GOVERNMENTS REGULATED BY FEDERAL LAW, BUT IT'S STATES THAT ADMINISTER ELECTIONS.

THIS HAS BEEN, YOU KNOW, THROUGHOUT OUR HISTORY THE KIND OF READ OUT OF SEGREGATIONISTS AND WHITE SUPREMACISTS.

PEOPLE HAVE TRIED TO BLOCK --YOU KNOW, ANYONE WHO DIDN'T LOOK LIKE DONALD TRUMP FROM BEING ABLE TO CAST A BALLOT.

BUT RIGHT NOW IT MEANS THAT IF DONALD TRUMP TRIES TO SEIZE THE VOTING MACHINES IN FULTON COUNTY, GEORGIA, IT'S ACTUALLY STATE OFFICIAL AND CAN BE STATE COURTS THAT CAN BLOCK THOSE KIND OF EFFORTS.

IT'S VERY CLEAR TRUMP IS FANTASIZING ABOUT DOING THIS.

HE'S TALKING ABOUT INVOKING, YOU KNOW, A NATIONAL STATE OF EMERGENCY, THE INSURRECTION ACT, BUT STATE GOVERNMENTS CAN BE THE LINE OF DEFENSE.

SO IN 2026 STEP ONE OF THE PLAN IS TO ENSURE THAT THE PEOPLE WHO WILL RUN THE ELECTIONS IN 2028 ARE PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN DEMOCRACY ITSELF.

AND THAT CAN MEAN KEISHA BOTTOMS AT GOVERNOR OF GEORGIA, DAVID CROWLEY AS GOVERNOR OF WISCONSIN, SECRETARIES OF STATE, IT MEANS SUPREME COURT JUSTICE.

THOSE ARE THE KEY DECISION-MAKER THAT WILL DETERMINE WHETHER DEMOCRACY GETS THROUGH THIS MOMENT OF EXTREME PERIL.

THAT'S STEP ONE.

STEP TWO IS IN 2028 FOR PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN EXPANDING DEMOCRACY TO WIN A FEDERAL TRIFECTA.

THE PRESIDENCY, THE U. S. HOUSE, THE U. S. SENATE.

STATES STILL MATTER ENORMOUSLY IN THAT MOMENT, BULLET THAT IS THE ONE CHANCE THAT WE HAVE COMING UP TO WIN A UNIFIED FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THAT TAKES THIS CRISIS SERIOUSLY.

AND THEN STEP THREE, IN 2029 EVERYONE WHO VOLUNTEER, WHO DONATED, WHO GOT INVOLVED, WHO VOTED TO ELECT THAT GOVERNMENT THAT WANTS TO ACTUALLY END AMERICA'S MELT DOWN, ALL THOSE PEOPLE NEED TO STAY MOBILIZED, TO PRESS THE GOVERNMENT TO ACTUALLY TAKE ACTION.

AND THAT MEANS ENDING THE FILIBUSTER, BANNING PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING.

I ARGUE FOR PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION IN THE U. S. HOUSE.

U. S. SUPREME COURT REFORM.

I THINK TERM LIMITS ON THE U. S. SUPREME COURT SO IT'S NOT KIND OF A LOCKED IN PARTISAN BODY IN THE WAY IT IS RIGHT NOW.

AND THEN THERE'S ALSO A PLAN TO TURN THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE INTO A KIND OF SIDESHOW BY GETTING STATES TO ENACT LAWS THAT MAKE THE WINNER OF THE NATIONAL POPULAR VOTE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

AND WHILE WE'RE AT IT, D. C. STATEHOOD, AND A REFERENDUM FOR STATEHOOD IN PUERTO RICO.

ALL THOSE POLICIES IF YOU TAKE THEM TOGETHER, THEY DISMANTLE THE SYSTEM OF CONTROL THAT THE RIGHT HAS IMPOSED ON A COUNTRY OVER A PERIOD OF DECADES AND MAKE EVERY VOTER IN THIS COUNTRY ACTUALLY HAVE A VOICE IN WHO IS THE U. S. HOUSE MAJORITY, THE U. S. SENATE MAJORITY, WHO BECOMES THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

AND IT ALLOWS STATES AND THE PRESIDENT TO PASS LAWS WITHOUT HAVING A U. S. SUPREME COURT THAT ONLY STRIKES DOWN LAWS AND EXECUTIVE ACTIONS WHEN THEY'RE DONE BY DEMOCRATS.

>> BEN WIKLER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, MICHEL