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Wyoming has a new state superintendent of public instruction.

His name is Brian Schroeder, and he's only been in the position since January.

The elected superintendent, Jillian Balow, left the job to take a position in Virginia.

And in January, Governor Mark Gordon appointed Brian Schroeder to fill the position until this year's general election.

We'll speak with Superintendent Brian Schroeder on the next Wyoming Chronicle.

Funding for this program is made possible in part by the Wyoming Humanities Council, helping Wyoming take a closer look at life through the humanities.

Thinkwy.org And by the members of the Wyoming PBS Foundation.

Thank you for your support.

- Hello, I'm Steve Peck of WyomingPBS.

We're joined today by the new State Superintendent of Public Instruction for Wyoming, Brian Schroeder Superintendent Schroeder welcome to WyomingPBS.

Thank you for being here and congratulations on the new position.

- Thank you, Steve.

It's nice to be here with you.

Thank you.

- It's been somewhat tumultuous time for you.

And I guess since new year's day, how's it been going so far?

- So far it's been a hoot.

- A hoot.

- Yes lots of fun, lots of work.

It's been very challenging, very interesting, very exciting, very encouraging, very overwhelming.

- In a good way I hope.

- In a good way yes.

- What are your some of your initial impressions of capitol, the job the department, the staff, that sort of thing.

- Yeah, well the capitol I'm in of I remember when I first walked in the front doors I was astounded that it was unlocked.

- Yes.

- It was open to the public.

God bless Wyoming.

And you know, since I've been here now four or five weeks at times I'll catch myself walking through the Capitol and just shaking my head.

- I work here now.

- Yes I'm astounded.

How did this I all happen?

So it's very humbling.

It's a tremendous honor.

As far as the staff, the Department of Education staff they're just tremendous I couldn't speak any highly any more high of them.

They're very supportive and very helpful, very encouraging and very capable.

The Department of Education is in good hands.

We have a lot of longevity there, a lot of stability the folks know what they're doing and they care and stuff.

So the staff is just, you know, holding me up basically.

And that's been just a joy and an honor to work with them.

And I might also add, it's been a tremendous honor and a real thrill to work with the Governor.

I find him a man that I really respect.

He's just, he's down to earth he's been very helpful to me offering mentoring, I meet with him regularly and that's been a very fun part of the job.

It's just a real honor to work with Governor Gordon.

- Let's talk about this process that got you from there to here.

When the vacancy was made known, and it was clear that Superintendent Balow was leaving the position, what factors led you to think I want to try this?

- The main factor was a lot of good folk up in Cody were calling me and then prompting me and encouraging me and asking me if I would throw my hat in the ring.

Which I never gave consideration to it and would not have outside of that.

So I- - It makes you think though - Yes, it did - People, you know, and encourage you - Yeah, at first I didn't think I was interested, but it continued and so I threw my hat in the ring via, you know, a resume and a biography and a cover letter that you had to send off and I thought that would be the end of it.

And then an email came back.

"You need to be down in Douglas to give a speech and answer some questions of the from the State Central Committee."

And somewhere along the way I thought I heard there was like 14 or 17 people on the State Central Committee.

I got there and there were 74.

- Wow.

- Plus all the county activists in the room plus the public plus the press.

It was a very intimidating experience.

And then, yeah so that's kind of the process.

And one thing led to another, before I knew it I was in the top three and came here to the Governor's office for an interview.

And a couple day days later I got the phone call offering me the job call.

Yeah.

- Well, it's a very compressed timetable.

We were speaking earlier that when someone decides to run for the job and that, let me ask you first I think you addressed this for a moment.

Was the idea of running for State Superintendent ever on your life radar before?

- No never, never in my five year plan ten year plan or 25 year plan.

No.

- So someone who does decide to run for the job thinks about it I presume for a few weeks, then there's the filing period, which is in May, and then there's a couple of three months before the primary election.

And if the candidate survives that there's another couple of months before the general election and in November if the candidate survives that then there's another couple of months before taking office which usually includes some orientation and training time.

- So I've heard - You didn't get any of that, did you?

- No, no.

- What's been key to you in doing the best you can I guess to hit the ground, at least walking, if not running?

- Honestly, what I've always told my kids "Just take the next step."

That's the only way I can break it down rather than trying to bite off the whole big picture which is enormous.

I just operate from the mentality as much as possible.

Okay What's the next step?

So when I get up in the morning what's the next step?

Shower and get clothed.

After our meeting we just, "Hey, what's the next step?

Come over here and do the interview."

And I just keep trying to take the next step and we'll see how it goes and how far it goes.

- You mentioned you, the thing you say to your kids.

What can you tell us about your background, your family?

- Okay yeah, so I was born in St. Louis, Missouri.

I grew up in Fort Atkinson, Wisconsin.

I grew up in a single parent home, my brother, sister and I were raised by our mom in a little agrarian town, Fort Atkinson.

And we had a outside of not having a father, we had a incredible childhood.

I often liken it to Huck Finn Tom Sawyer.

We were, we like other kids of course, we went to school, but we were fishing in the Rock River or swimming across the Rock River which you weren't supposed to do because it was all life threatening experience but that's what made it all the more fighting.

Skating Haumerson's Pond, going to church on Sunday mornings watching the Green Bay Packers on Sunday afternoon.

And you know, it was a farm community.

So I worked my way through high school and college milking cows, riding tractors, bailing hay.

And it was a great place to grow up.

I love my childhood.

I love my hometown.

From there, I went to college in my three career tracks have run basically three different paths.

One was education.

I was a teacher for 10 years and then the last five years, 15 years in education total, last five years principal teacher of a small school in my hometown of Fort Atkinson.

From there, I crossed over into pastoral ministry for seven years.

And from there, I crossed over into the professional counseling field where I worked in two different residential treatment facilities six years in Michigan, eight and a half in Wisconsin with abuse, neglect ages and their families.

- What brought you to Wyoming?

- What brought me to Wyoming was the last residential treatment facility I was at, went through a financial crisis.

They cut programs, and people and my program the Family Weekend Program that I ran was one of the things that got cut by the new CEO that came in.

I was gonna be there the rest of my life and would've been happy, be happy to have done so but change of chapter and an opportunity opened up with a school in Cody Wyoming.

And so I checked it out.

And next thing I know I'm working in Wyoming.

For a year yeah, I was up there for a year and a half before this opened up.

- There's no ironclad job description for State Superintendent.

- So I found.

- People there've been about two dozen State Superintendents to proceed you in the job.

And in looking through their resumes I've seen their they're quite varied.

What do you bring to it?

- Well, you know, along with that, that was one of my first questions to the Governor in the interview is what is the job description?

What do I bring to it?

Perhaps the intangibles, but I like to keep it simple.

And honestly, I feel like if I am qualified and time will tell, what I bring to it is I was a student.

So I understand students.

I am a parent, so I understand parents and I was a classroom teachers.

So I understand teachers.

And that is the educational enterprise in my mind, students, parents, and teachers.

And I can relate to and understand all three with a passion.

So that's what I bring to it if anything.

- There's not a lot of near, it seems to me perhaps not as nearly as much shared experience in among people as there used to be.

In my father's generation, one thing that was so common for all of them was that they were had the World War II military experience.

At least my father's generation did.

- Yeah.

- There's not as much of that now but I think the K12 educational experience is something that just about every one of us has had.

- Yes.

- Or will have, or is having what do you remember about yours that sticks with you and that maybe moved you to enter the field?

- Yeah, what I remember about mine was school was a happy safe place for us kids going to.

Obviously we didn't grow up in any area where there were the school shootings.

So we didn't have kind of stuff never even crossed our mind as far as which it does our kids today they go to school wondering, could, you know could that happen to me or to us?

So it was a very safe, happy experience.

And the other thing I remember was just a strong sense of community throughout the whole school.

You know, your best friends were there, you grew up these kids, and the third thing was the teachers, especially for me one fourth grade teacher made a real life impact to where I have contact with her to this day.

And I have to say mostly initiated by her but she would come over to our birthday parties and just took a real personal interest in me.

And at the time when you're a fourth grader it doesn't necessarily, I think it resonates with you more than you know but as you grow up, you realize, wow she really, really cared.

- We're on Statewide Television.

What's her name?

- Her name is Mrs. Drager.

- Mrs. Drager.

Wyoming has 23 counties, as you probably know.

That's where the voters are, where the public school districts are.

For a long time, the state had each county and lots.

And the school districts are identified by County Park County School District One, for example, the counties had elected superintendents.

The State of Wyoming went away from that a long time ago.

And now the elected school board members choose the district superintendents in Wyoming.

They're sort of a difference.

The superintendents, the elected position and there is a state board of education which is appointed.

Do you do you see any relevant discrepancy there that needs to be addressed, or is it just more of a quirk of state law that is not a big deal in terms of at least your position?

- That's a good question, Steve.

I honestly don't know.

I've not been in the saddle a long enough to figure that out, whether that's a quirk or whether there's a real issue there or not, I don't know.

- Here's this here's another one.

I similar lines.

The job that Superintendent Balow left to take in Virginia is an appointed position there.

Not every state has an elected state superintendent.

Wyoming doesn't have some of the elected state offices that other states do.

There's no elected lieutenant governor here.

for example.

Your position is an elected one.

Do you think there's any advantage or disadvantage in doing it one way or the other?

- Yes, I do.

I think the elected position superintendent being an elected position is the way to go.

Just because it keeps it accountable to the people.

They can determine who's going to be in that role.

If it's a political position and if it's a, you know, an important statewide position.

which superintendent is I think that decision should be left with the people.

- Anyone who looks at your resume would see quickly that much of your education experience has been in the private school realm.

You're now the head of the big public school system in Wyoming.

Is there a gap that needs to be bridged there as you see it?

And how do would you intend to go about?

- Yeah, well, there's a learning curve for sure.

This is not my wheelhouse.

How I intend to go about it is to in the next ten to 12 months to learn the ropes and to get as much mentoring as I can.

From people that can help me learn the ropes So, yeah, beyond that, I don't I personally don't look at I don't look at the educational landscape as territorial sectors of public.

It's public schools, private schools and parochial schools and homeschools and private tutoring.

I look at it as education in all its different flavors and whether it's public, private, or parochial or some of the other, if they're doing it effectively and they're providing a quality education for it, regardless of what sector it is.

So I see I and my wife as well, we I was a private school teacher, but we sent our kids to public schools most of their lives.

Some of our kids at different stretches in their education struggle.

So I became or found but in our cases as a teacher, I became one of my son's private tutor.

That's what he needed for three years in a row till he was on his own feet.

So I believe in private tutoring.

One year while I was doing my pastoral residency, I homeschool I believe in home schooling if it can be done well and done right.

So for me, it's all of the above and they all should be working together.

And thankfully, they are now in the climate of our culture much more than 20, 30 years ago when they're all very territorial.

and wouldn't touch each other and I just think they all have something to offer each other and it can be an iron sharpening iron experience.

- I was reading some of your statements you'd made and a little bit of your biographical material as you were approaching the position and you talked about the concept of thinking, teaching students to think teachers to think critically logically, carefully, productively.

Can you tell us more about that?

- Sure.

Yeah.

My whole philosophy education is informed by what I believe to be the purpose of education or what it was for over a thousand years, and that it can be summed up in four words: to learn to think.

In fact, I go through a ritual every first day of school with my class asking them, why do you go to school, what's the purpose of school?

And of course, they come up with all these outlandish, creative, and sometimes hilarious answers.

But I'd whittle down to basically what's the purpose of school and theyd holler out, ”To learn!

” I said, Yeah, that's right.

But then with a nice, pregnant, dramatic pause, Id say ‘But that's only half right.

And I'd write the words on the board ‘to learn.

And then another nice dramatic pause.

I write the words ‘to think.

The other half of it is ‘to think and put those two together.

You have the purpose of education, to learn, to think to learn from others, to think for oneself.

So I explained to them it's best I could bring it down to their level, depending on what grade I was talking to.

In math the learning side of it is computation, the thinking side of it is application.

In reading it's about learning how to read, not only learning how to read, but how to distinguish what is worth reading.

In history it's about what happened on the learning side.

On the thinking side it's about who told you what happened.

In science the learning side is observation, the thinking side is experimentation.

And so for education to be a two edged sword, it's got to be both dynamics at work, learning and thinking and putting them together.

And you've got the purpose of education in my mind.

- What makes a good schoolteacher, do you think?

- For me, bottom line, what makes a good school teacher is if they have the gift of teaching and the calling.

I believe it's a calling as well.

And and usually where you have the gift, you have a calling.

Where you have a calling, you have a gift, the two come together.

Then beyond that training, you know, developing your skills, experience.

But at the very bottom level, it's you can't make a teacher out of someone who doesn't have the gift and and someone who has the gift.

Education can help sharpen.

But that's that's why I'm excited about the future of education in this country and in this state with so many paradigm shifts happening.

Right now, teacher shortage, that's going to that's going to create a paradigm shift.

we're going to have to get more flexible and look at different models.

And so there's a lot of people out there working in different fields other than education who have the gift of teaching, but they don't necessarily have a degree in teaching but they can make a contribution because they have the gift.

- Do you think that because of Wyoming's place as the smallest population state in the nation, that maybe that would give us an advantage in attracting some of the people you're talking about?

- Yes, I do.

Absolutely.

Yes.

This state is poised to lead the nation in education.

And one major reason why is because less is more education is one of those fields where less is more and more, - What do you mean by that?

- Less people here in Wyoming, smaller classes.

Any classroom teacher will tell you they can do more with less students.

So, you know, education is one of those things where you can't do it on a mass assembly line.

It's a it's an individualized enterprise.

So you've got a smaller state, you've got smaller towns, you've got smaller schools, that it's just a garden for a quality education.

- Well, extending my earlier question to a larger stage, what makes a good school then, or a good school district?

Same concept, or is there more to it than that as you see it?

- There's more to it.

What makes a good school in my mind is also understanding its purpose.

So if the purpose of education for a student is to learn to think or to teach them to think, the purpose of education, in my mind for a school is to understand its role and historically the role of a schoolhouse has always been on the one side to be an extension of and support for the home and on the other end to be an incubator for and a bridge to society.

So if a school is fulfilling its role, then it is actually making the home stronger.

Or if it's not fulfilling its role because it's just becoming something other than what the school house is supposed to be, then it's it's going to make the family system family structure weaker.

And we see both, you know, in different parts of the country and around the world.

Some schools make a home stronger.

Some schools either conflict with the home or compete with the home or try to replace the home.

And that's not the role of the schoolhouse.

The role of schoolhouse is to be an extension of and support the home.

So a lot and there's a lot of ramifications and implications of that.

On the other side, the school house should be in the vision of the founding fathers and the early Americans, an incubator for and a bridge to society with which with all that that means.

So developing great community leaders, business leaders, active members in the local churches, the great American patriots that love their country and would be willing to die for it if it came to that.

So the school house should be a place that teaches patriotism.

And I could go on and on.

- Wyoming has five statewide elected officials, the governor, the secretary of state, treasurer, the auditor, the state superintendent.

One of the things you're learning, I'm sure, quickly or soon, well, as and more about is that in addition to your duties as the superintendent, you also serve with the other officials on numerous state boards and commissions that evaluate and assess and make recommendations and make decisions on things that don't have much to do with public education, the state land board, the loans and investments, the building commission things like that.

Were you able to give much consideration to that part of the job in your hurry up process of being appointed this position, or what are you how are you assessing that now and approaching it?

- I was able to give limited consideration to it up until the interview with the governor and then when I came to realize that a big part of the job description, knowing that's out of my wheelhouse I asked the governor and the other electeds to what extent can I get help?

On being brought up to speed on that, receiving mentoring.

So the learning curve is going to be huge.

It's going to require a lot of work.

And but I know the people that can help me and they're committed to doing that.

And my deputy my new deputy, Chad Auer, is very good with that kind of stuff.

And so he'll be working with me and briefing me and hopefully bringing me up to speed.

- I think the the idea behind having the five people from coming out of from different angles, brings a breadth of experience.

And maybe it's more in your wheelhouse and then you think.

- Maybe that's a good point.

Yeah, that's true.

- We'll find out soon enough.

- Yes, sir.

- When someone is appointed to fill the vacancy, one of the first questions that often is asked is, Do you intend to run for the position in your own right?

This is an election year.

You'd said earlier that the idea of running for state office had never really occurred to you before where you have you been asked that question and what are your thoughts about filing for office in about 60 days from now?

- I have been asked that question not a few times, and I have decided and we'll make it public in the next week or two.

- When you reflect on your own career path and it's been varied, what led you to pursue a career in the private school realm as opposed to the public?

Was it a conscious choice or was this just the circumstances that existed when you were looking for a job?

- Yeah, it was just the circumstances that existed when I was looking for a job.

I just kind of fell into it.

Yeah.

So growing up, I was one of those boys that hated school and even when I was in college, I could not imagine being a teacher.

I would go up to some of my friends in the hall who were studying to be teachers and say, Why are you studying to be a teacher?

Don't you hate school?

And they would say, Yes, why would you go to school to go to school the rest of your life?

But from the first day, I ended up in the classroom it was magic.

And, you know, things change.

Life changes.

I changed just like that.

And I fell in love with teaching and I realized I was good at it.

I could connect with my students and I could engage them.

And I was just determined to be the kind of teacher that I had along the way a couple of times.

And to not be the kind of teacher that I had many times along the way, that just turned me off.

So I stumbled into it.

But from day one, I loved it.

- Realized you'd arrived once you got there?

-Yes.

Yeah.

- You hold a political office.

For better or for worse, politics seems to play a bigger and bigger role in so many things now.

What place do you think it has in public education?

- Well, obviously, it depends on what you mean by politics.

Politics has to do with polity, which has to have policy.

And so in public education, there has to be policies both at the local level and the state level.

But the other obvious definition is the politics that turns people off, that none of us like to play.

Becoming a politician or playing the political game.

I don't feel like that has any place in the classroom.

I know it does in my role to some extent, but if I have a role to play, it will be as much as possible to try to keep political ideology out of the classroom.

In fact, a good teacher and sometimes I walk this fine line and other times I fail.

But a good teacher after a year or however long the student has that teacher when that time is over.

A good student can't tell what that teacher's political leanings are if the teacher did his or her job.

If the teacher started using the classroom for a soapbox or to promote his or her own political ideology and the students can tell he leans right or he leans left, the teacher's not doing their job in my view.

Kind of like a good journalist, you know, that's doing hard news.

The audience shouldnt be able to tell which way you lean.

Same with, in my mind, a good teacher.

We've been speaking with State Superintendent of Public Instruction, Brian Schroeder.

Thanks, Superintendent, for being with us, on Wyoming PBS - Thank you, Steve.

Funding for this program is made possible in part by the Wyoming Humanities Council, helping Wyoming take a closer look at life through the humanities.

Thinkwy.org And by the members of the Wyoming PBS Foundation.

Thank you for your support.