>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> I'M ASKING AMERICAN PARTNERS TO SELL ME 5% --5% OF MISSILES, WHAT THEY HAVE IN THEIR STOCKS.

>> UKRAINE PLEADS FOR MORE AMERICAN PATRIOT MISSILES, AS RUSSIA INTENSIFIES ITS DEADLY ATTACK.

BUT HAS TRUMP'S WAR OF CHOICE ON IRAN LEFT AMERICA'S OWN ARSENALS DANGEROUSLY DEPLETED?

I SPEAK TO FORMER PENTAGON OFFICIAL EVELYN FARKAS.

THEN IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK ISRAEL DEPLOYS ITS ARMY AGAINST ITS OWN CITIZENS.

SETTLERS LAYING SEIZE TO PALESTINIAN HOMES.

JEREMY DIAMOND REPORTS FROM THE SCENE.

> >> PLUS, FIVE YEARS SINCE KABUL FELL TO THE TALIBAN, AFGHAN WOMEN AND GIRLS HAVE BEEN ALL BUT ERASED FROM PUBLIC LIFE.

ACTIVIST MAHBOUBA SERAJ AND JOHN SOPKO JOIN ME TO REFLECT WHAT THE UNITED STATES FALLOUT HAS USHERED IN.

ALSO AHEAD.

>> WHAT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY CAN DO TO CHANGE IS TO SHOW UP AS PART OF THE LIFE OF EVERY NEIGHBORHOOD AND EVERY COMMUNITY WHERE PEOPLE INTERACT FACE-TO- FACE WITH HUMAN BEINGS WHOSE TRUST THEY CAN EARN.

>> CAN WISCONSIN OFFER DEMOCRATS A WINNING BLUEPRINT?

MICHELLE MARTIN SPEAKS TO FORMER STATE PARTY CHAIR, BEN WIKLER.

> >> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE "AMANPOUR" IN LONDON.

A RIPPLE EFFECT FROM WASHINGTON TO TEHRAN IS KILLING CIVILIANS IN YOU CRANE.

YES, THE U. S. FACES A DWINDLING STOCKPILE OF CRITICAL WEAPONS SYSTEMS HAVING MASSIVELY DEPLETED THEM IN ITS WAR WITH IRAN.

BURNING THROUGH NEARLY 80% OF ITS THAD MISSILE INVENTORY, AND HALF OF ITS PATRIOT INTERCEPTORS.

THE WEAPON SHORTAGE WAS A FACTOR IN PRESIDENT TRUMP'S REPEAT DECISION TO CANCEL NEW STRIKES ON IRAN, AND IT COST UKRAINE ALMOST - -OR RATHER MOST ACUTELY, LEAVING ITS CITIES VIRTUALLY DEFENSELESS AGAINST MOSCOW'S RELENTLESS ATTACKS.

NOW PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY IS MAKING A PLEA FOR ROUGHLY WHAT PERCENTAGE REMAINS.

IN AN INTERVIEW WITH NICK PAYTON WALSH.

>> I'M ASKING AMERICAN PARTNERS TO SELL ME 5%, 5% OF MISSILES, WHAT THEY HAVE IN THEIR STOCKS.

IF THEY SELL US 5%, WE WILL GO THROUGH THE WINTER AND SAVE PEOPLE'S LIVES.

IF THEY CAN SELL US 10%, WE WILL DESTROY ALL THE RUSSIAN'S BALLISTIC MISSILES.

>> RUSSIA IS EXPLOITING UKRAINE'S VULNERABILITY, USING BALLISTIC MISSILES TO KILL CITIZENS IN KYIV, LUVIV, AND ELSEWHERE.

ANALYSTS SAY IT COULD TAKE THE U. S. MILITARY YEARS TO REPLENISH THE STOCKPILE OF HIGH END WEAPON.

BUT PRESIDENT TRUMP INSISTS THERE IS NO SHORTAGE, POSTING, QUOTE, THE U. S. HAS MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF MUNITIONS ESPECIALLY OF CERTAIN TYPES.

FOR MORE ON WHAT THIS ALL MEANS LET'S BRING IN EVELYN FARKAS, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, AND NOW EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE McCAIN INSTITUTE.

WHAT SHOULD WE BELIEVE?

ARE THESE DEEPLY REPORTED STATS ABOUT DWINDLING SUPPLIES ACCURATE?

OR WHAT, YOU KNOW, THE PENTAGON AND THE PRESIDENT ARE SAYING, THAT, NO, THERE IS NO SHORTAGE?

>> WELL, CHRISTIANE, THERE OBVIOUSLY HAS TO BE A SHORTAGE.

YOU KNOW, THE UNITED STATES HAS BEEN EXPENDING AN INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF MUNITIONS, AND THAT HAS BEEN ACTUALLY REVEALED TO A LARGE EXTENT BY THE PENTAGON.

THEY HAVEN'T TOLD US HOW MANY THEY HAVE, BUT WE KNOW THEY HAVE BEEN EXPENDING A LOT.

AND OF COURSE UKRAINE IS EXPENDING A LOT OF MUNITIONS THAT WE PROVIDE THEM AGAINST RUSSIA BECAUSE RUSSIA'S INCREASED THEIR ATTACKS ON THE CIVILIAN POPULATION IN KYIV AND ELSEWHERE IN UKRAINE.

SO WE KNOW THAT THE NUMBER OF MUNITIONS BEING USED HAS GONE UP, SO THAT PROBABLY MEANS THAT THE STOCKPILES ARE DOWN BECAUSE WE HAVE A PROBLEM IN OUR DEFENSE INDUSTRIAL BASE.

WE SIMPLY AREN'T REPLACING THEM FAST ENOUGH.

>> LET'S JUST NAIL THAT DOWN, TOO, BECAUSE I READ ALARMINGLY THAT EVEN IF ORDERS ARE PUT IN POST HASTE, THEY CAN'T MAKE THESE THINGS OR PUT THEM ON THE, YOU KNOW, SUPPLY LINE UNTIL, LIKE, 2030.

>> RIGHT.

I MEAN, THAT HAS TO BE RECTIFIED.

THERE ARE PROBABLY WAYS TO DO THIS, BUT THE GOVERNMENT HAS TO MAKE GUARANTEES TO OUR COMPANIES THAT THEY WILL HAVE A STEADY STREAM OF CUSTOMERS.

I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD WORRY ABOUT THAT BECAUSE -- I MEAN, I THINK THEY SHOULD DO THAT.

THEY SHOULDN'T WORRY ABOUT DOING IT.

AND THEN THE OTHER THING, CHRISTIANE, TO REMEMBER IS PRIORITIZATION.

IF WE CAN HELP UKRAINE STOP RUSSIA, DEFEAT RUSSIA'S AGGRESSIVE FOREIGN POLICY, PROTECT CIVILIANS, THEN WE'RE DOING SOMETHING THAT'S IN OUR INTEREST, THAT IS, YOU KNOW, CONSISTENT WITH OUR VALUES.

AND ALSO IF WE WEAKEN RUSSIA, THEN WE WILL HELP OURSELVES IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND VISA VI CHINA BECAUSE RUSSIA IS, OF COURSE, WORKING WITH IRAN AND CHINA IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND ELSEWHERE.

AND SO A WEAK RUSSIA WILL ALSO HELP US COUNTER THOSE OTHER BAD ACTORS.

>> SO EVELYN FARKAS, LET ME JUST ASK YOU BECAUSE YOU PROBABLY HEARD --WE PLAYED THAT SOUND BITE, PART OF AN INTERVIEW WITH CNN'S NICK PATEN WALSH, WHERE PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY WAS QUITE CATEGORICALLY LAYING DOWN THE PERCENTAGE OF U. S. MISSILES HE WANTED TO BUY.

IS THAT DREAMO VISION RIGHT NOW?

5% IS NOT NOTHING.

10% IS NOT NOTHING.

>> NO, IT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE A LOT, CHRISTIANE.

AND AGAIN, BASED ON WHAT I JUST SAID PRIORITIZATION I THINK IT'S A PRETTY GOOD DEAL BECAUSE, OF COURSE, IT REDUCES THE THREAT POSED BY RUSSIA TO THE NATO ALLIES AND TO THE UNITED STATES.

IT MAKES RUSSIA A WEAKER ACTOR SO THEY CAN'T SUPPORT IRAN.

AND SO I THINK PRIORITIZING HELPING UKRAINE DEFEND ITSELF AGAINST RUSSIA IS A PRETTY GOOD DEAL, IF IT'S ONLY 5% OR 10%F OUR INVENTORY.

>> SO THAT SEEMS TO MEAN THAT IT WOULD REQUIRE THE UNITED STATES NOT TO GO WHOLE HOG AGAINST IRAN.

I MEAN, "THE NEW YORK TIMES" IS REPORTING THAT THE MUNITIONS SHORTAGE IS WHAT PLAYED A ROLE IN PRESIDENT TRUMP'S DECISION NOT TO MAKE ANOTHER, AS HE WOULD CALL IT, MASSIVE STRIKE ON IRAN.

HAVE YOU --GIVEN THE FACT YOU'VE BEEN IN THE PENTAGON, IN BIG POSITIONS -- HAVE YOU EVER SEEN THIS KIND OF CRISIS BEFORE?

>> WELL --SO, FIRST I HAVE WORKED ON MIDDLE EAST POLICY BEFORE, SO I KNOW OBVIOUSLY WE HAVE TO MAKE TRADEOFFS AMONG THE VARIOUS AREAS OF OPERATION.

AND JUST TO ADD TO WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT THE "THE NEW YORK TIMES" REPORTING THE GENERALS REPORTEDLY --THE MILITARY COMMANDERS WENT TO PRESIDENT TRUMP AND SAID WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF MUNITIONS, BUT MORE TO THE POINT THEY SAID IT ISN'T WORKING.

SO EVEN IF WE EXPENDED MORE MUNITIONS, WE RBT GOING TO FORCE THE IRANIANS TO DO WHAT WE WANT THEM TO DO.

SO IT'S BETTER TO WAIT, TO KEEP THE BLOCKADE UP, AND TO WORK THROUGH NEGOTIATIONS.

WITH REGARDS TO THESE TRADEOFFS, LOOK, THE U. S. GOVERNMENT ALWAYS HAS TO MAKE THESE TRADEOFFS.

WE MAY BE AT A WORSE PLACE THAN WE'VE BEEN IN A LONG TIME IN TERMS OF THE NUMBER OF MUNITIONS BECAUSE IT DOES SOUND LIKE IT'S QUITE LOW.

AND WE HEARD UNDER THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION ALSO CONCERNS OF THIS NATURE, SO, YOU KNOW, WE'RE TALKING MORE THAN A YEAR AGO THERE WAS ALREADY CONCERN THAT OUR SUPPORT WAS DEPLETING MUNITIONS.

WE HAVE TO HAVE ENOUGH TO MAKE SURE THAT CHINA DOESN'T DECIDE TO DO ANYTHING RISKY.

ESSENTIALLY THAT'S CALLED DETERRENCE, MAKING SURE THE BAD GUYS DON'T TAKE ADVANTAGE OF YOUR DEPLETED MUNITIONS.

BUT I DON'T THINK WE'RE THERE YET.

I THINK IF WE WERE THERE, THERE WOULD BE A LOT MORE AGITATION AMONG THE MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, FRANKLY, AND INSIDE THE PENTAGON THAT WOULD LEAK OUT TO THE PUBLIC.

>> OKAY.

BUT, YOU KNOW, THE PRESIDENT OF THE CZECH REPUBLIC, A FORMER NATO OFFICIAL, PAVEL TOLD ME JUST THIS SPRING THAT WE ARE IN A PRETTY BAD STATE WHEN IT COMES TO PUTIN LOOKING FOR WEAKNESSES IN EUROPE AND THE UNITED STATES, WEAKNESSES IN NATO, AND PERHAPS TRYING TO PROVOKE.

AND WE CAN SEE BECAUSE WE'VE BIP REPORTING THIS FOR THE LAST SEVERAL WEEKS AT LEAST THAT THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF INCURSIONS BY RUSSIAN DRONES AND BITS AND PARTS OF RUSSIAN EQUIPMENT GOING INTO CERTAIN NATO COUNTRIES.

JUST TAKE A LISTEN TO WHAT PAVEL TOLD ME ABOUT A PUTIN ON A TOTALLY WAR FOOTING AND NOT BACKING DOWN.

>> IF YOU ARE IN THE POSITION OF A RUSSIAN LEADER AND YOU WOULD SEE A WEAKENED EUROPE, WEAKENED GREAT OF THE UNITED STATES OVER EUROPEAN SECURITY, I WOULD SAY, WELL, THAT'S A GOOD CHANCE.

LET'S USE IT.

SO I WOULD SAY LET'S LOOK AT IT ALSO FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF OPPORTUNITY FOR RUSSIA.

NOT NECESSARILY TO LAUNCH A MASSIVE OPERATION IN EUROPE, BUT TO HUMILIATE NATO BY STARTING LET'S SAY A LIMITED MILITARY ACTION, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE BALTICS.

>> SO YOU STUDY OBVIOUSLY RUSSIA A LOT.

WHAT WOULD YOU RATE AS THE ODDS OF PUTIN DOING THAT?

>> I THINK THAT PETER PAVEL IS CORRECT, THAT THE ODDS ARE PRETTY HIGH.

HE COULD TRY TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THIS TROODISTRACT FROM THE FACT HE'S LOSING IN UKRAINE, TO TRY TO CREATE THE IMPRESSION AMONG HIS RUSSIAN POPULATION THAT HE'S ALREADY TRYING TO CREATE --WHICH IS THAT THIS IS A WAR NOT AGAINST UKRAINE BUT A WAR THE WEST STARTED AGAINST RUSSIA.

SO THEREFORE SOME KIND OF PROVOCATION THAT RESULTS IN A COUNTER-REACTION FROM NATO MIGHT IN PUTIN'S MIND BE THE RIGHT PRETEXT TO TRY TO GET HIS PEOPLE BEHIND THE WAR.

I FRANKLY DON'T THINK IT WILL WORK, BUT WE KNOW THAT PUTIN'S A RISKTAKER SO IT IS A DANGER.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE SHOULD CHANGE ANYTHING.

IF ANYTHING WE SHOULD JUST DO MORE, BUILD UP THE DEFENSES IN RUSSIA, DETER PUTIN, AND HELP UKRAINE BRING THIS WAR TO AN END AS FAST AS POSSIBLE.

BECAUSE ONE THING IS CLEAR, THE LONGER THE WAR GOES ON, THE LONGER THIS PERIOD OF RISK WHERE PUTIN DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO GET OUT OF A LOSING PROPOSITION.

AND THAT PERIOD OF RISK IS A RISK TO OUR ALLIES.

>> JUST TO NOTE HERE, A RUSSIAN MILITARY BLOGGER SEEING ALL THESE REPORTS THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, LOW WEAPONS SUPPLIES IN THE U. S. WROTE, QUOTE, THE SITUATION IS VERY FAVORABLE.

AND YOU'VE NO DOUBT BEEN WATCHING RUSSIA REALLY ON THE OFFENSIVE.

I MEAN THE OTHER WEEK UKRAINE COULD NOT TAKE OUT A SINGLE ONE OF THE --I THINK IT WAS 28 MISSILES LAUNCHED --BALLISTIC MISSILES LAUNCHED AT CITIES BY RUSSIA.

COULD NOT INTERCEPT ANY OF THEM, PEOPLE ARE DYING.

AND NOW PUTIN IS, YOU KNOW, HITTING TANKERS WITH GRAIN, WITH OTHER THINGS.

HE SEEMS TO BE REALLY SENSING A MOMENT OF ADVANTAGE.

>> CHRISTIANE, I DON'T THINK THERE IS ADVANTAGE HERE.

I ACTUALLY THINK THAT THE UKRAINIANS STILL HOLD THE ADVANTAGE AND THE MOMENTUM BECAUSE THE UKRAINIANS ARE STILL HITTING THE OIL DEPOTS, THE OIL REFINERIES DEEP INSIDE OF RUSSIA.

THEY'RE TAKING OUT THE LOGISTICS CHAIN THAT LEADS FROM RUSSIA PROPER TO CRIMEA.

AND THEY'RE DOING THINGS TO WEAKEN THE RUSSIAN ECONOMY.

AND FRANKLY THE RIGHT WING BLOGGERS HAVE BEEN COMPLAINING THAT PUTIN'S WAR IS BEING LOST BY PUTIN.

THEY'VE STARTED CRITICIZING PRESIDENT PUTIN, WHICH IS WHY YOU SAW HIM SUDDENLY GO OUT AND TRAVEL ACROSS RUSSIA INCLUDING TWO DISPUTED ISLANDS, JAPANESE ISLANDS.

BUT NEVER MIND THAT.

WHAT HE'S TRYING TO DO IS SEND A SIGNAL THAT, YOU KNOW, HE HAS POPULAR SUPPORT, WHICH HE DOESN'T.

>> AND THE JAPANESE REPORTED THEY WERE MIGHTY PEEVED BY THAT VISIT, AS YOU CAN IMAGINE.

BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU ON THE BIGGER PICTURE --ISN'T THE U. S. DOCTRINE, MILITARY DOCTRINE TO BE ABLE TO FIGHT TWO WARS AT THE SAME TIME?

AND IF THAT IS THE CASE STILL, CAN THE U. S. DO THAT RIGHT NOW?

>> WELL, THAT IS A GOOD QUESTION, CHRISTIANE, BECAUSE THAT'S BEEN TRADITIONALLY THE PERSPECTIVE COMING FROM THE PENTAGON, WHICH THEN THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL WOULD ENDORSE, THAT THE UNITED STATES SHOULD BE ABLE TO FIGHT TWO MAJOR WARS AND THEN A SMALLER ONE PERHAPS.

WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS SAID THAT THEY ARE AIMING TOWARDS AND WHAT WE ARE CAPABLE OF DOING, BUT I WOULD ARGUE THAT WE SHOULD NOT AIM TO, YOU KNOW, FIGHT MORE THAN ONE WAR.

ALTHOUGH, OF COURSE, LET'S NOT KID OURSELVES.

THESE WARS ARE LINKED.

RUSSIA AND IRAN ARE WORKING TOGETHER IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

RUSSIA'S PROVIDING INTELLIGENCE.

RUSSIA'S PROVIDING THEIR UPGRADED DRONES.

AND THEN, OF COURSE, IRAN PROVIDED THE ORIGINAL DRONES TO RUSSIA, CONTINUES TO SUPPORT RUSSIA.

NOT TO MENTION, OF COURSE, WHAT CHINA'S BEEN DOING BEHIND THE SCENES, AND THEN ALSO WHAT NORTH KOREA IS DOING.

SO ALL OF THESE COUNTRIES ARE WORKING TOGETHER IN ALL THEATERS.

>> IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO KEEP OUR FOCUS ON THIS.

EVELYN FARKAS OF THE McCAIN INSTITUTE, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US.

> >> AND NEXT WE TURN TO THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK WHERE FOR DAYS ISRAELI SETTLERS HAVE SURROUNDED THREE PALESTINIAN HOMES.

THE SETTLERS HAVE CUT OFF ACCESS TO THE AREA AND ARE BESIEGING THE FAMILIES TRYING TO GET THEM TO LEAVE.

THE ISRAELI ARMY HAS BEEN CALLED IN TO DISPERSE THEM, AS JEREMY DIAMOND REPORTS.

>> THE VIEW FROM THIS PALESTINIAN HOME IS THE SAME FROM EVERY ANGLE.

ISRAELI SETTLERS EVERYWHERE YOU LOOK.

FOR DAYS NOW THEY'VE SET UP CAMP AND SURROUNDED THREE HOMES ON THIS HILLTOP IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK IN A BID TO FORCE THE RESIDENTS OUT AND TAKE OVER.

THEY'VE CUT WATER AND POWER LINES AND HAVE TRIED TO STOP ANYONE FROM APPROACHING.

ALL OF THIS IS ILLEGAL, AND YET THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED WHEN PALESTINIAN RESIDENTS FIRST CALLED THE ISRAELI MILITARY.

SOLDIERS JOINED THE SETTLERS IN PRAYER.

>> THEY START HUGGING THE SETTLERS, AND THEY START PRAYING WITH THE SETTLERS AND ABSOLUTELY DID NOTHING TO PROTECT MY BROTHER AND HIS SON.

>> HE OWNS ONE OF THOSE HOUSES.

A PALESTINIAN AMERICAN, HE'S WATCHED ALL OF THIS UNFOLD FROM OHIO.

AND THIS IS WHAT HE SAW ON WEDNESDAY.

THE ISRAELI MILITARY TRYING AND ULTIMATELY FAILING TO REMOVE THE SETTLERS FROM THE AREA.

HOURS LATER WE DRIVE UP THE HILL TO SEE IF ANYTHING HAS CHANGED.

SO THESE ARE ACTUALLY THE THREE HOMES THAT HAVE BEEN BESIEGED BY THE SETTLERS FOR FOUR DAYS NOW.

WE'RE GOING TO TRY AND CLIMB UP THIS HILL TO SEE IF WE CAN GET PAST THE SETTLERS WHO ARE BLOCKING THE AREA.

THE SETTLERS ARE STILL THERE.

SO ARE TWO ISRAELI SOLDIERS WHO ORDER US TO STOP AND TURN OFF OUR VEHICLE.

THE SOLDIER TELLS ME THIS IS NOW A CLOSED MILITARY AREA AND THAT WE'RE INTERFERING WITH MILITARY ACTIVITY.

AN IDF SPOKESPERSON SAID THE ORDER DOES APPLY TO THE SETTLERS, BUT IT'S CLEARLY NOT BEING ENFORCED.

>> THEY'RE TELLING US THAT IT'S A CLOSED MILITARY ZONE, THAT WE'RE NOT ALLOWED TO BE HERE.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME WE'RE SEEING MULTIPLE ISRAELI SETTLERS WHO ARE HERE WHO ARE NOT BEING MADE TO LEAVE, AND WHO ARE CONTINUING TO BLOCK THE ACCESS TO THESE HOMES.

DOWN THE HILL WE CALL HIS BROTHER WHO'S BEEN STAYING IN HIS HOME.

THIS IS THE CLOSEST WE'RE ABLE TO GET TO YOUR HOME, UNFORTUNATELY.

HOW ARE YOU DOING?

DO YOU STILL HAVE SUPPLIES?

THE FOOD I HAVE IS GOING TO RUN OUT IN TWO OR THREE DAYS.

BEYOND THAT I HAVE NO FOOD, NOTHING, HE SAYS.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME EVEN IF I RUN OUT OF FOOD, I WILL NOT LEAVE THE HOUSE.

SO DO YOU HAVE ANY HOPE THAT THESE SETTLERS ARE ACTUALLY GOING TO BE KICKED OUT OF THIS AREA?

HONESTLY, FROM WHAT I SAW TODAY, THE SETTLERS WERE MONSTERS, HE COMPLAINS.

THEY EVEN ATTACKED THE ISRAELI ARMY FORCING THEM TO FIRE SOUND GRENADES AND TEAR GAS.

THEY HAVE THEIR EYES SET ON THIS HOUSE.

THEY WANT TO TAKE IT.

THE ISRAELI MILITARY SAYS IT IS STEPPING UP ITS EFFORTS TO ROUTE THE SETTLERS, DEPLOYING AN INFANTRY BATTALION TO THE AREA TO, QUOTE, PROTECT THE RESIDENTS AND MOUNT SECURITY.

BUT HIS FEARS AREN'T ABSTRACT.

IN RECENT WEEKS SETTLERS IN THIS AREA HAVE SET FIRE TO A MOSQUE AND BESIEGED THIS HOME.

THIS RIGHT HERE IS WHY THOSE FAMILIES ARE AFRAID TO LEAVE THEIR HOMES.

YOU CAN SEE ISRAELI SETTLERS ON THE ROOFTOP OF THIS HOUSE HERE.

THREE WEEKS AGO PALESTINIANS WERE LIVING IN THAT HOUSE, BUT IT'S BEEN TAKEN OVER BY ISRAELI SETTLERS.

WITH A MUCYANIC FLAG NOW FLYING ABOVE IT, THESE SETTLERS NOW WANT THEIR PRESENCE KNOWN FROM ONE HILLTOP TO THE NEXT.

>> AND-JEREMY'S JOINING US.

JEREMY, IT'S WILD.

IT'S INCREDIBLE WHAT YOU'VE BEEN SHOWING US.

WE KNOW AND YOU KNOW IF THE IDP WANTS TO GET PEOPLE OUT OF THEIR WAY THEY CAN DO IT, AND IT'S NOT LIKE THERE'S A HUGE NUMBER OF THOSE SETTLERS.

WHAT MORE CAN YOU TELL US?

>> YEAH, NO, YOU'RE EXACTLY RIGHT, CHRISTIANE.

I MEAN, WE'VE CERTAINLY SEEN TODAY THAT THE ISRAELI MILITARY DEPLOYED A LOT MORE SOLDIERS TO THIS AREA.

THE QUESTION IS WHAT ARE THEY ACTUALLY GOING TO DO THERE?

WE SAW INITIALLY THEY ACTUALLY ENTER PALESTINIAN'S HOMES.

THEY KICKED PEOPLE OUT TO ESTABLISH THESE OUTPOSTS WHERE THEY SAID THEY WOULD FIGHT THE SETTLERS, ESSENTIALLY.

THAT DECISION WAS ULTIMATELY REVERSED.

THE SOLDIERS LEFT THEIR HOUSES, AND SO FAR WE HAVEN'T ACTUALLY SEEN THESE SOLDIERS REMOVE OR DETAIN THE SETTLERS WHO ARE IN THE AREA.

I SPOKE WITH THE OWNER OF THAT HOME WE WERE JUST SHOWING IN OUR REPORT, AND AS OF A COUPLE OF HOURS AGO THERE WERE SETTLERS IN FRONT OF EHIS HOME THAT HE COULD SEE ON HIS SECURITY CAMERAS.

AND AS YOU'VE SAID, CHRISTIANE, WE HAVE SEEN THE ISRAELI MILITARY, WE'VE SEEN THE ISRAELI BORDER POLICE IN ACTION WHEN THEY WANT TO REMOVE PEOPLE FROM A CERTAIN AREA.

THEY HAVE A VARIETY OF RIOT --AT THIRS DISPOSITION.

THEY HAVE THE ABILITY TO DETAIN PEOPLE IN LARGE NUMBERS WHEN THEY WANT TO.

BUT FOR SOME REASON OR ANOTHER WHEN IT COMES TO THESE ISRAELI SETTLER, THE ISRAELI MILITARY HAS YET TO USE THE MEANS AT ITS DISPOSAL.

CHRISTIANE?

>> JEREMY, THANK YOU.

KEEP AN EYE ON IT.

IT'S GREAT REPORTING.

THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

> >> THIS WEEKEND MARKS FIVE YEARS SINCE THE FALL OF KABUL TO THE TALIBAN AND AMERICA'S SUBSEQUENT CHAOTIC WITHDRAWAL FROM AFGHANISTAN.

THE IMAGES ARE HARD TO FORGET.

DESPERATE PEOPLE RUNNING ON THE TARMAC TRYING TO FLEE.

CROWDS PILING UP OUTSIDE THE AIRPORT GATE, AND THE GUN TOTING TALIBAN HOISTING THEIR FLAGS PARADING THROUGH THE STREETS.

FIVE YEARS LATER AFGHANISTAN IS ISOLATED, IT'S WARRING WITH NEIGHBORING PAKISTAN.

ITS PEOPLE ARE DESPERATELY POOR, AND GIRLS ARE BANNED FROM SECONDARY SCHOOL, AND WOMEN, THE U. N. SAYS, HAVE BEEN ERASED FROM PUBLIC LIFE.

MAHBOUBA SERAJ IS A LONG TIME WOMEN'S RIGHTS ACTIVIST WHO HAD HAS DEFIED PRESSURE FROM THE TALIBAN AND HAS STAYED IN KABUL FOR THE PAST FIVE YEARS.

BUT NOW, SHE SAYS, THE PRESSURE MAY HAVE BECOME TOO MUCH.

SHE JOINS US FROM KABUL.

ALSO WITH US IS JOHN SOPKO WHO SERVED FOR YEARS AS INDEPENDENT INSPECTOR GENERAL FOR THE U. S. FOR AFGHANISTAN, THE OFFICIAL WATCHDOG OF THE U. S. GOVERNMENT.

BOTH OF YOU WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

LET ME START WITH YOU, MAHBOUBA SERAJ IN KABUL.

I SAID THAT YOU'RE FACING THE PRESSURE AND YOU MAY NOT ANY LONGER BE ABLE TO, YOU KNOW, OPEN YOUR SHELTERS AND KEEP YOUR HELP AND SUPPORT FOR AFGHAN WOMEN.

TELL ME WHERE THAT STANDS.

>> THANK YOU, MS.

AMANPOUR, VERY MUCH FOR INVITING ME.

WELL, I MEAN IT TOOK A LONG TIME FROM ACTUALLY THE SHELTERS WERE ESTABLISHED IN 2003 IN KABUL.

AND IT WAS TO25 IN DECEMBER WHEN IT WAS CLOSED BY FORCE.

AND FROM THEN ON I DON'T HAVE A SHELTER, SO LIFE FOR ME IN KABUL WHICH WAS THE REASON I WAS HERE WHICH IS FOR THE PROTECTION OF THE ABUSED WOMEN OF AFGHANISTAN, I BELIEVE IT'S TERMINATED.

I CAN'T --I CANNOT CONTINUE WORKING THIS WAY BECAUSE I HAVEN'T BEEN ANY HELP TO ANY OF THE AFGHAN WOMEN WHEN THEY NEEDED ME.

I HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO DO IT BECAUSE NOBODY ALLOWS ME TO.

AND THE WOMEN, YOU KNOW, ARE --ALL OF THEIR RIGHTS HAVE BEEN TAKEN AWAY FROM THEM.

AND IF ANYBODY SAYS ANYTHING ABOUT IT, WE ARE WRONG.

WE ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO SAY IT, BUT THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HAS HAPPENED.

BECAUSE THIS IS THE TIME OF THE YEAR WHEN EVERYBODY IS COMING AND THEY WANT TO KNOW ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON WITH THE TALIBAN.

THAT'S WHY.

>> YEAH.

I HEAR THE DISTRESS OBVIOUSLY IN YOUR VOICE.

LET ME ASK YOU, JOHN SOPKO, AFTER ALL THESE YEARS AND ALL YOU'VE DONE TO TAKE ACCOUNT AND KEEP ACCOUNT OF WHAT'S GOING ON ON BEHALF OF THE U. S. GOVERNMENT, HOW ARE YOU FEELING FIVE YEARS LATER AFTER ALL THIS MONEY, ALL THIS EFFORT BY THE U. S. AND ALL THE PROGRESS THAT WAS MADE THERE, ESPECIALLY FOR WOMEN AND GIRLS.

>> WELL, THANK YOU FOR INVITING ME, CHRISTIANE.

I'M DEPRESSED AND SADDENED.

I KNOW A LOT OF AFGHANS WHO HAVEN'T MADE IT OUT.

I KNOW A LOT OF WOMEN WHO HAVEN'T MADE IT OUT, WHO ARE STILL HIDING, OR THEY'RE STUCK IN THE PIPELINE.

SO IT IS A SAD, DEPRESSING TIME.

AND IT'S -- IT'S TRAGIC.

IT'S BASICALLY TRAGIC.

I MEAN, IT IS -- IT'S HELL IF YOU'RE A WOMAN IN AFGHANISTAN.

AND I DON'T SEE THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY -- I DEFINITELY DON'T SEE THIS GOVERNMENT, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, DOING ANYTHING.

ANYTHING AT ALL ABOUT IT.

IF ANYTHING, THEY'RE CREATING A BIGGER MESS FOR THE POOR PEOPLE OF AFGHANISTAN.

>> WELL, YOU MIGHT MEAN BECAUSE OF THE, YOU KNOW, CUT BACK OF USAID AND EVEN THOSE HUMANITARIAN PROJECTS BEING CUT BACK.

SO MAHBOUBA, CAN YOU TELL US WHAT IT'S LIKE FOR WOMEN?

SOME CAN WORK.

I KNOW SOME ARE ON THE TELEVISION.

THEY HAVE TO BE MASKED.

BUT BY AND LARGE THEY ARE ERASED.

I MEAN, I READ SOMEWHERE TODAY THAT SOME WOMEN DON'T EVEN LEAVE THEIR HOUSE MORE THAN TWICE A MONTH.

>> YEAH, THAT'S TRUE.

WHY SHOULD THEY GO ON THE STREETS?

WHAT FOR?

I MEAN, THEY REALLY --THEY DON'T HAVE TO GO.

IF THEY DON'T NEED TO GO, THEY DON'T BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT WELCOME.

AND TO DO WHAT?

THEY DON'T HAVE MONEY TO BUY ANYTHING.

THEY DON'T HAVE ANYPLACE TO GO TO.

THEY'RE NOT ALLOWED TO.

SO WHY SHOULD THEY WALK ON THE STREETS?

THEY DON'T WANT TO GET OUT, SO THEY'RE STAYING HOME.

BUT THIS IS ALL DONE BY FORCE.

THIS IS THE THING THAT IS GOING ON, AND NOBODY WANTS TO ADMIT IT.

IT'S BY FORCE, MS.

AMANPOUR.

IT'S NOT BECAUSE THEY'RE WILLING TO DO IT.

IT'S BY FORCE.

AND IT'S BEEN HAPPENING BY FORCE.

>> YOU CLARIFIED BY FORCE OF THE TALIBAN MAKING THESE EDICTS AND REFUSING TO ALLOW WOMEN AND GIRLS DESPITE THE PROMISES THEY MAKE.

DEWE ALL PLEASE REMEMBER IN 2021 WHEN THEY CAME INTO KABUL AND HAD THEIR FIRST PRESS CONFERENCE THEY SAID THAT THEY WERE DIFFERENT, AND THEY WERE GOING TO ALLOW A DIFFERENT KIND OF TALIBAN RULE THAT I WITNESSED BACK IN, YOU KNOW, '96 WHEN THEY FIRST TOOK OVER.

LET ME ASK YOU, JOHN, WE'RE GOING TO GO BACK A FEW YEARS NOW TO 2021 AND WHAT PRESIDENT BIDEN SAID ABOUT THE AUGUST 31 DATE, WHICH HE PUSHED UP TO AUGUST 15th.

AND LET'S JUST TAKE A LISTEN AND I'LL ASK YOU ABOUT IT.

>> IN APRIL I MADE A DECISION TO END THIS WAR.

AS PART OF THAT DECISION WE SET THE DATE OF AUGUST 31st FOR AMERICAN TROOPS TO WITHDRAW.

THE ASSUMPTION WAS THAT MORE THAN 300,000 AFGHAN NATIONAL SECURITY FORCES THAT WE HAD TRAINED OVER THE PAST TWO DECADES AND EQUIPPED WOULD BE A STRONG ADVERSARY IN THEIR CIVIL WARS WITH THE TALIBAN.

THAT ASSUMPTION THAT THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT WOULD BE ABLE TO HOLD ON FOR A PERIOD OF TIME BEYOND MILITARY DRAW DOWN TURNED OUT NOT TO BE ACCURATE.

>> REALLY, YEAH, IT TURNED OUT NOT TO BE RIGHT.

YOU WERE TRYING TO SOUND THE ALARM, JOHN, BACK THEN.

DID IT FALL ON DEAF EARS?

>> YES, IT DID.

AND IT'S INTERESTING ABOUT THAT 300,000 FIGURE.

THAT WAS A FIGURE OUT BY EVERY ADMINISTRATION, PARTICULARLY THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

IT WAS TOTALLY FALSE.

WE TOLD THEM IT WAS TOTALLY FALSE YEARS BEFORE.

WE DID NOT HAVE A GOOD ACCOUNTING.

SO TO HEAR THAT I THINK --I THINK WITHIN HOURS OF THE COLLAPSE OF AFGHANISTAN I REMEMBER I THINK IT WAS THE PR PERSON FOR THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT WAS CLAIMING I HAD EVIDENCE.

HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY EVIDENCE.

I MEAN, IF HE HAD READ ANY OF OUR REPORTS GOING BACK TO ALMOST WHEN I STARTED 12 YEARS BEFORE, HE WOULD NOT HAVE MADE THAT.

IT WAS HAPPY TALKS, AND THAT'S THE UNFORTUNATE THING.

AND YOU SEE THE SAME THING RIGHT NOW WITH IRAN.

IT'S HAPPY TALK.

YOU KNOW, WE'RE BLASTING THEM OUT.

EVERYTHING'S GOING WELL AND ALL OF THAT.

WELL, THERE'S NOBODY ACTUALLY DOING OVERSIGHT IN IRAQ --IN IRAN, EXCUSE ME.

NOBODY REALLY DOING EFFECTIVE OVERSIGHT ANYMORE, SO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND CONGRESS --I MEAN, SHAME ON THEM --ARE NOT DOING THE OVERSIGHT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S GOING ON THERE AND WHAT'S GOING ON IN AFGHANISTAN.

THAT IS STILL -- >> OKAY.

>> WE STILL HAVE RESPONSIBILITY.

>> JOHN, LET ME JUST ASK YOU BECAUSE I WAS JUST TALK ABOUT IRAN AND OTHER ISSUES WITH FORMER PENTAGON OFFICIAL EVELYN FARKAS AND ABOUT THE U. S. MUNITIONS RUNNING LOW PARTLY BECAUSE OF THE WAR IN IRAN, ET CETERA.

BUT WHAT IS NOT BEING HELD ACCOUNTABLE?

WHAT ACCOUNTING IS NOT BEING DONE THAT YOU'RE CONCERNED ABOUT OVER THE IRAN WAR?

>> WELL, I'M SHOCKED AND I THINK EVERYONE IS, AND CHRISTIANE, YOU MUST BE, TOO.

HERE WE HAVE A CONGRESS WHOSE JOB IS TO OVERSEE THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH.

HERE WE HAVE A CONGRESS, PARTICULARLY THE APPROPERATERS, CHAIRMAN OF THE SENATE APPROPRIATION, CHAIRMAN OF THE HOUSE APPROPRIATIONS WHO CONTROL THE MONEYBAG.

THEY CONTROL THE MONEY.

AND YOU'RE TELLING ME ALL OF A SUDDEN THEY DISCOVER WE'RE OUT OF WEAPONS?

I MEAN, WHAT IS GOING ON?

I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY EFFECTIVE OVERSIGHT FROM CONGRESS.

I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY EFFECTIVE OVERSIGHT FROM THE AIG AFTER THEY FIRED 16 OF US BACK IN 2025.

THOSE ARE SIMPLE THINGS.

I MEAN, THIS IS COMMON SENSE.

AND THEN IN THE MIDST OF THIS WAR CONGRESS GOES UNDER RECESS FOR A NUMBER OF MONTHS.

THIS IS WHY, CHRISTINA, IF YOU HAD A HOUSE AND IT'S RAINING AND YOU GOT A HOLE IN THE ROOF AND YOU CALL SOMEBODY TO COME IN TO FIX IT AND HE SAYS OH, OKAY, I GOT TO LEAVE NOW, I GOT TO GO ON VACATION FOR TWO MONTHS --WHAT ARE AMERICANS SUPPOSED TO THINK ABOUT THEIR CONGRESS?

REMEMBER CONGRESS IS SUPPOSED TO OVERSEE THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH.

WHERE HAVE THEY BEEN SINCE THIS WAR IN IRAN STARTED?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, GOING BACK TO YOUR ROLE IN AFGHANISTAN YOU WERE THERE ALL THE TIME BRIEFING CONGRESS, TELLING THEM, YOU KNOW, DOLLARS AND CENTS WHAT'S GOING THERE AND WHAT THEY SHOULD BE ALERT FOR, AND YOU WERE VERY DILIGENT ABOUT IT ALONG WITH ALL THE OTHER IGs WHO HAD OTHER RESPONSIBILITIES.

BUT I WANT TO GO BACK QUICKLY TO MAHBOUBA SERAJ BECAUSE BACK IN 2022, I. E. , ONE YEAR AFTER THE TALIBAN TOOK OVER, I WENT OVER AND TRY TO DO A STATUS REPORT.

AND I SAT DOWN WITH OSTENSIVELY THE MAIN LEADER OUTSIDE THE KANDAHAR THEOCRACY.

AND THIS IS WHAT HE TOLD ME.

HE TOLD ME THAT WOMEN AND GIRLS --DON'T WORRY, DON'T WORRY.

WOMEN AND GIRLS WILL GET THEIR RIGHTS, THEY WILL BE ABLE TO GO TO SCHOOL.

JUST TAKE A LISTEN.

>> MANY TELL US THAT THEY FEEL THAT THE TALIBAN WANTS THEM TO STAY AT HOME, AND THEY'RE AFRAID OF SOME THE EDICTS.

IT HAS A VERY CHILLING EFFECT.

>> WE KEEP NAUGHTY WOMEN AT HOME.

>> OKAY, YOU NEED TO EXPLAIN THAT JOKE BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL THINK THAT'S OFFICIAL POLICY, AND MAYBE IT IS.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN NAUGHTY?

>> WHAT I AM SAYING IS THAT THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY IS RAISING THE ISSUE OF WOMENS RIGHTS A LOT.

HERE IN AFGHANISTAN THERE ARE ISLAMIC NATIONAL, CULTURAL, AND TRADITIONAL PRINCIPLES.

WITHIN THE LIMIT OF THOSE PRINCIPLES, WE ARE WORKING TO PROVIDE THEM WITH OPPORTUNITIES TO WORK, AND THAT IS OUR GOAL.

BY SAYING NAUGHTY WOMEN, IT WAS A JOKE REFERRING TO THOSE NAUGHTY WOMEN WHO ARE CONTROLLED BY SOME OTHER SIDES --TO BRING THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT INTO QUESTION.

>> YOU KNOW, MAHBOUBA SERAJ, IT'S OBVIOUSLY TURNED OUT TO BE A CRUEL JOKE ON THE AFGHAN WOMEN.

THE PROMISES, AS I SAID, AT THE EARLY PRESS CONFERENCES WHAT HE SAID TO ME, AND HE ACTUALLY ALLEGEDLY IS ONE OF THE MORE WILLING TO LET GIRLS GO TO SCHOOL AND HAVE WOMEN WORK.

THEY DO IN HIS INTERIOR MINISTRY.

ARE YOU SURPRISED THAT THOSE PROMISES THAT THE TALIBAN MADE, THAT 2.

0 WOULD BE DIFFERENT THAN 1.

0 JUST SIMPLY COLLAPSED?

>> YEAH, I AM AND I AM NOT, TO TELL YOU THE HONEST TRUTH.

BECAUSE THE WORLD KNEW THE TALIBAN.

2.

0 OR 1.

0 AND ALL OF THAT, THAT DOESN'T REALLY MEAN ANYTHING.

THEY ARE NOT A POLITICAL GROUP.

THEY'RE A GROUP OF --THEY'RE A RELIGIOUS GROUP, AND RELIGION IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ARE COMING AND THEY'RE YOUNGER OR THEY'RE OLDER OR WHATEVER.

NO, THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN.

BECAUSE THEY HAVE AN IDEOLOGY.

THEY WORK ACCORDING TO THAT IDEOLOGY.

AND THAT IDEOLOGY IS NOT GOING TO LET THEM TO GIVE WOMEN ANY KIND OF A FREEDOM.

THAT'S VERY SIMPLE.

BUT THE THING THAT I WANT YOU TO PLEASE, YOU KNOW, TELL THE WORLD, WE KNOW THE WORLD DOES NOT WANT TO HEAR ANYTHING ABOUT THE AFGHAN WOMEN NEGATIVELY FROM THE GOVERNMENT OF TALIBAN.

THEY DIDN'T.

THEY WERE FREE TO SAY EVERYTHING IS FINE, SO WE'RE GOING TO GIVE THE WOMEN OF AFGHANISTAN AND ALL OF ITS PROBLEMS TO THE TALIBAN, AND WE WANT TO FORGET IT.

THAT'S WHERE THE WORLD WAS, AND THAT'S WHERE THE WORLD IS TODAY.

AND THAT'S WHY WHATEVER IS HAPPENING IN AFGHANISTAN NOBODY REALLY CAN TALK ABOUT IT BECAUSE NOBODY CAN REALLY KNOW EXACTLY WHAT IS GOING ON.

AND THIS IS IT.

>> YEAH.

>> THIS IS IT.

THIS IS WHAT IS HAPPENING TO THE WOMEN OF AFGHANISTAN.

AND MR.

SOPKO.

HE KNOWS THAT.

HE KNOWS THAT.

AND THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING IN AFGHANISTAN.

>> YEAH, I THINK IT'S A NIGHTMARE.

>> THAT'S IT.

NOT THE WHOLE OF IT.

AND THE WORLD DOES NOT WANT TO HEAR IT.

>> AND JOHN SOPKO --JOHN SOPKO, IF THE WORLD DOESN'T WANT TO HEAR ABOUT THE WOMEN AND THE GIRLS OF AFGHANISTAN, AND THERE ARE MILLIONS OF GIRLS WHO ARE DENIED SECONDARY EDUCATION --WHAT ABOUT AT LEAST THE AFGHANS WHO WORKED FOR AND WITH THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT?

YOU'RE TRYING TO HELP PROTECT THEM.

A LOT OF THEM ARE IN THE UNITED STATES THAT THE U. S. IS APPARENTLY TRYING TO FARM THEM OUT ELSEWHERE KNOWING HOW BAD IT WOULD BE TO SEND THEM BACK TO AFGHANISTAN UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES.

WHAT ARE THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE AFGHANS WHO SO BRAVELY HELPED THE UNITED STATES FOR DECADES?

>> WELL, THE STATUS IS ALMOST AS BAD AS FOR THE WOMEN.

THERE'S HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS WHO ARE STILL IN AFGHANISTAN WHO TRIED TO COME HERE.

WE HAD ALMOST 200,000 -- 175,000 WHO WERE ACTUALLY IN THE PIPELINE, WHO'D ACTUALLY DONE ALL THE PAPERWORK, WHO WERE VETTING --THE THING WHEN YOU HEAR OH, ALL THESE PEOPLE ARE DANGEROUS, THE VETTING SYSTEM WE WERE USING WAS THE BEST VETTING SYSTEM BY EVER.

IT WAS INVENTED BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION THE FIRST TIME AROUND, AND IF ANYTHING WAS ENHANCED.

SO THE PIPELINE IS SHUTDOWN.

ALL ASSISTANCE IS SHUTDOWN.

WE HAVE PEOPLE DYING IN AFGHANISTAN RIGHT NOW.

WE HAVE PEOPLE WHO SUPPORTED -- AND IT'S NOT JUST POLICE.

IT'S NOT JUST TROOPS, JOURNALISTS --IT'S EVERYBODY WHO BELIEVED IN US.

AND YOU KNOW SOMETHING?

THIS IS A NATIONAL SECURITY ISSUE BECAUSE OUR PROMISE TO THESE PEOPLE WAS SIMILAR TO THE PROMISE THAT PRESIDENT FORD MADE, AND WE HAVE BROUGHT IN A MILLION PEOPLE AFTER VIETNAM.

WE HAVE ABOUT 150, 160,000 WE BROUGHT IN, AND THERE'S A COUPLE HUNDRED THOUSAND STILL WAITING.

DO YOU THINK ANYONE IS GOING TO BELIEVE AND TRUST THE UNITED STATES THE NEXT TIME WE NEED ALLIES TO FIGHT?

WHEREAS UKRAINE, IRAN, OR WHATEVER AFTER THE WAY WE TREATED THE AFGHANS?

>> YEAH.

WELL, I CAN HEAR THE DESPERATION IN YOUR VOICE AFTER ALL THAT YOU'VE DONE TO MAKE THIS, YOU KNOW, WORK OUT AND ALSO FOR MAHBOUBA SERAJ AFTER ALL SHE'S DONE AND NOW CONTEMPLATING LEAVING AFGHANISTAN.

IT IS A TRAGIC AND UNHAPPY FIFTH ANNIVERSARY, AND WE THANK YOU BOTH FOR TALKING TO US ABOUT IT.

WE'RE GOING TO KEEP THE FOCUS ON.

THANK YOU.

> >> THIS WEEK AMERICANS IN SIX STATES VOTED IN PRIMARY TO CHOOSE THEIR PARTY'S CANDIDATES FOR THE UPCOMING FALL ELECTIONS.

SO WHAT DID THE RESULTS REVEAL?

TRUMP-ENDORSED CANDIDATES WERE SUCCESSFUL DESPITE HIS LOW APPROVAL RATINGS.

AND THE DEMOCRATIC CONTEST HIGHLIGHTED THE DIVIDE BETWEEN PROGRESSIVE AND MODERATES.

WELL, OUR NEXT GUEST SAYS WISCONSIN OFFERS A BLUEPRINT FOR REBUILDING DEMOCRATIC POWER FROM THE GROUND UP.

BEN WIKLER IS THE STATE'S FORMER DEMOCRATIC CHAIR, AND HE'S JOINING NICHELLE MARTIN NOW.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

BEN WIKLER, THANKS SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

>> LOTS OF NEWS TO TALK ABOUT, BUT I WANT TO START WITH YOUR BOOK TITLED "THIS IS THE PLAN, HOW TO END AMERICA'S MELT DOWN AND SAVE DEMOCRACY. "

YOU RAN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN WISCONSIN FOR SIX YEARS.

AND OUT OF THAT EXPERIENCE YOU HAVE THE NOTION THAT, YOU KNOW, AS WISCONSIN GOES, SO GOES THE COUNTRY AND WISCONSIN HAS A LOT TO OFFER THE COUNTRY.

SO THE FIRST QUESTION I WANTED TO ASK YOU IS WHAT IS THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY DOING WRONG?

>> WELL, AT A VERY BASIC LEVEL, AS A COUNTRY WE'VE ALL BEEN PULLED APART FROM EACH OTHER.

WE'VE PULLED INTO OUR PHONES.

COMMUNITY HAS COLLAPSED AROUND THE NATION.

PEOPLE ARE LESS INVOLVED WITH THEIR NEIGHBORS.

THEY SPEND LESS TIME FACE-TO-FACE WITH EACH OTHER, AND THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY HAS HAD THE EXACT SAME THING OVER THE LAST CENTURY.

IT'S ERODED AND ERODED TO THE POINT WHERE MOST PEOPLE'S EXPERIENCE TO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS FUND-RAISING TEXT MESSAGES AND URGENT E-MAILS AND NEVER ACTUALLY CONVERSATIONS WITH HUMAN BEINGS.

SO THE ESSENTIAL KIND OF ARGUMENT IN MY BOOK ABOUT WHAT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY CAN DO TO CHANGE IS TO SHOW UP AS PART OF A LIFE OF EVERY NEIGHBORHOOD AND EVERY COMMUNITY WHERE PEOPLE INTERACT FACE TO FACE WITH HUMAN BEINGS WHOSE TRUST THEY CAN EARN.

IF YOU DO THAT, THEN YOU'RE ABLE TO PULL PEOPLE TOGETHER IN THE FACE OF, YOU KNOW, ATTACKS BY A WOULD-BE AUTHORITARIAN OR ANY OTHER POLITICAL CRISIS THAT MIGHT COME UP.

THAT'S WHAT WE'VE BEEN DOING IN WISCONSIN, AND IT HAS HAD A HUGE EFFECT YEAR OVER YEAR.

AND THAT'S SOMETHING EVERIEN CAN GET INVOLVED IN CHANGING FOR THE WHOLE COUNTRY.

>> ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS YOU MAKE IN THE BOOK IS ACTUALLY ELECTIONS EVEN IN A COUNTRY AS BIG AS THE UNITED STATES ARE ACTUALLY DECIDED BY VERY FEW PEOPLE.

>> YEAH.

>> HOW DID YOU COME UP WITH THAT REALIZATION?

>> THAT'S THE PARADOX OF THIS MOMENT.

THAT A COUNTRY OF 340 MILLION PEOPLE, AND YET REPUBLICAN CONTROL OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES CAME DOWN TO 7,309 VOTES ACROSS THREE CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS.

AND IT'S EVEN NARROWER THAN THAT BECAUSE THE RULES FOR HOW CONGRESSIONAL MAPS ARE DRAWN, THOSE COME DOWN TO STATE SUPREME COURT RACES AND STATE LEGISLATIVE RACES.

I WRITE IN THE BOOK ABOUT THE NORTH CAROLINA STATE SUPREME COURT RACE IN 2020 THAT CAME DOWN TO 401 VOTES.

ALMOST NO ONE WAS PAYING ATTENTION.

BUT THAT SET IN MOTION A CHAIN OF EVENTS THAT LED TO THE GERRYMANDERING OF THAT STATE THAT GAVE REPUBLICANS THREE ADDITIONAL CONGRESSIONAL FEATS THAT MADE MIKE JOHNSON THE SPEAKER OF THE U. S. HOUSE RIGHT NOW.

THERE ARE ELECTIONS LIKE THAT ALL THE TIME THAT ARE OBSCURE, WHERE A TINY --A TINY SHIFT IN THE NUMBER OF VOTES, THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT TURN OUT, WHO THEY VOTE FOR CAN TOPPLE THE OUTCOME ONE WAY OR ANOTHER THAT END UP HAVING HUGE RIPPLE EFFECTS ON THE ENTIRE AMERICAN SYSTEM.

IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE THE SYSTEM ITSELF, ZERO IN ON THE ALL IMPORTANT, SUPER CLOSE, SUPER OBSCURE ELECTION THAT CAN CHANGE EVERYTHING.

>> ALL RIGHT, LET'S TALK ABOUT WISCONSIN.

AS YOU AND I ARE SPEAKING NOW, BIG RACES JUST DECIDED -- WELL, THE PRIMARIES ANYWAY IN WISCONSIN A CANDIDATE WHO IS DESCRIBED AS THE MORE MODERATE, DAVID CROWLEY.

HE NARROWLY DEFEATED A CANDIDATE WHO IS IDENTIFIED -- SELF-IDENTIFIED --WHAT HAPPENED HERE?

IS THE POLLING JUST WAY OFF, OR WHERE THERE OTHER THINGS THAT AFFECTED THE DYNAMICS OF THE RACE?

>> SO POLLS AND PRIMARIES ARE NOTORIOUSLY INACCURATE AND VERY OFTEN MISS THE MARK.

THAT SAID THE POLLS THAT SUGGESTED FRANCESCA HONG HAD ABOUT 40% IN THE WISCONSIN GOVERNOR'S PRIMARY WERE ACCURATE.

THERE WERE A BUNCH OF UNDECIDED VOTERS AND IT LOOKS LIKE THEY OVERWHELMINGLY WENT FOR DAVID CROWLEY IN THE FINAL STRETCH.

HE WON BY LESS THAN 4,000 VOTES.

BOTH FRANCESCA HONG AND DAVID CROWLEY, WHO'S NOW GOING TO BE THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE FOR GOVERNOR IN WISCONSIN, THEY BOTH GOT MORE VOTES THAN ANY DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE FOR GOVERNOR IN A PRIMARY IN RECENT MEMORY.

THE LEVEL OF OVERALL ENGAGEMENT BY DEMOCRATS, PEOPLE WITH EVERY CANDIDATE FIGHTING FOR CHANGE TO TRY TO MAKE LIFE MORE AFFORDABLE DAVID CROWLEY AND FRANCESCA HONG TALKING ABOUT CHILD CARE, AND HEALTHCARE, AND HOUSING, THINGS EVERYONE NEEDS, THEY GENERATED A HIGH LEVEL OF TORN OUT IN THEIR PRIMARIES.

REPUBLICAN TURN OUT IN WISCONSIN WENT DOWN FROM 2018 TO 2026 IN THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY, AND THAT TELLS ME THERE'S AN ENGAGED ELECTORATE.

THERE'S A TON OF PEOPLE THINKING ABOUT THE POLICIES THAT THEY WANT AND THINKING ABOUT W TO WIN.

THEY MIGHT HAVE DISAGREED IN THAT MOMENT, BUT THE DAY AFTER THE PRIMARY FRANCESCA AND DAVID CROWLEY HAD LUNCH TOGETHER WITH A WHOLE BUNCH OF OTHER DEMOCRATS AND CANDIDATES.

AND THERE'S GOING TO BE UNITY GOING FORWARD.

AND THAT'S WHAT WE SAW IN WISCONSIN.

THAT'S WHAT WE SAW IN MICHIGAN.

I REALLY DO THINK THAT THERE'S A MOVEMENT THAT HAS ITS FIGHT IN THE PRIMARIES, AND THEN WILL COME TOGETHER TO SAY WHAT IS HAPPENING TO THIS WHOLE COUNTRY.

WHAT IS HAPPENING IN STATES LIKE WISCONSIN RIGHT NOW, WHERE THE ECONOMY IS BEING RIGGED FOR THE PEOPLE AT THE TOP AND DEMOCRACY IS BEING SMASHED SO THE PUBLIC CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

THAT IS NOT OKAY.

WE NEED SOMETHING BETTER AND DIFFERENT.

>> ONE OF THE REASONS IT STANDS OUT THIS IS A RESULT IN MICHIGAN WHERE THE MORE PROGRESSIVE CANDIDATE, I'LL SAY IT A DOCTOR PREVAILED OVER THE CANDIDATE WHO IS DESCRIBED AS SORT OF MORE MODERATELY ESTABLISHED CANDIDATE WHO'S A MEMBER OF CONGRESS, AND HE WON THE DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR'S RACE IN MINNESOTA.

THE CURRENT LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR WON THE PRIMARY FOR THE SENATE SEAT WHO'S ALSO DESCRIBED AS THE MORE MODERATE.

SO YOU HAVE THIS KIND OF MIXED RESULT.

SO THE TWO QUESTIONS I HAVE FOR YOU, ARE THESE LANES THAT WE'RE DESCRIBING OVERSTATED?

ARE THESE CANDIDATES REALLY THAT DIFFERENT?

>> THE DIFFERENCES IN A PRIMARY ALWAYS SEEM THE VERY, VERY BIGGEST THE DAY AFTER AND THE DAY BEFORE AND THE DAY OF THE ELECTION ITSELF.

WITHIN A MONTH PEOPLE ARE GOING TO RECOGNIZE THAT IN WISCONSIN, IN MICHIGAN, IN MINNESOTA ALL THESE CANDIDATES ARE RUNNING TO TRY TO UNRIG THE ECONOMY, TRYING TO TO MAKE THIS COUNTRY WORK FOR WORKING PEOPLE, AND THEY'RE TRYING TO FIGHT BACK AGAINST THIS CABAL OF VERY WEALTHY AND POWERFUL PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO RIG THE SYSTEM FOR THEIR OWN CORRUPT BENEFIT.

AND THAT IS - -THAT IS THE MESSAGE THAT WILL REACH, YOU KNOW, VOTERS THAT ARE ON THE FENCE ABOUT WHETHER TO VOTE AND WHICH PARTY TO VOTE FOR.

AND THAT'S A UNIFYING DEMOCRATIC MESSAGE THAT YOU SEE IN THE REDDEST AND PURPLEST AND BLUEST PLACES ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

THAT IS THE CENTRAL QUESTION IN THIS ELECTION RIGHT FOR YOU.

YOU KNOW, TRUMP IS BUILDING ARCHES TO HIMSELF AND BALLROOMS AND, YOU KNOW, HANDING OUT BILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO HIS FRIENDS AND SAYING THAT HE LOVES INFLATION AND HE LAUGHS AT THE LITTLE MAN WITH THE $4 GAS THAT YOU TALKS ABOUT, AND HE GETS EVERY SINGLE REPUBLICAN TO RUPPER STAMP THE WAR IN IRAN THAT HAS SENT THE COST OF GROCERIES AND GAS SPIRALING.

HE'S JUST VERY CLEARLY ON THE SIDE OF HIMSELF AND HIS FRIENDS AT EVERYBODY'S EXPENSE.

AND IN THE STATES -- IN A STATE THE SOMETIMES LIKE WISCONSIN AND MICHIGAN THAT VOTED FOR TRUMP TWICE, THERE'S A REAL SENSE THAT PEOPLE HAVE GIVEN TRUMP A SHOT.

IT IS NOT WORKING.

THE PROBLEMS THAT THEY ARE CRYING OUT TO BE ADDRESSED IN THEIR OWN LIVES WITH HOW INCREDIBLY HARD IT IS TO BE ABLE TO AFFORD CHILD CARE IF YOU'RE A PARENT, THEY WANT SOMEONE WHO'S ACTUALLY GOING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT.

AND WHEREVER YOU LAND WITHIN THE DEMOCRATIC SPECTRUM, EVEN SOME INDEPENDENT CANDIDATES, THERE'S A LASER FOCUS DELIVERING FOR WORKING FOLKS THAT I THINK IS GOING TO CARRY FOR DEMOCRATS IN 2026.

AND ALL OF THAT INFORMS WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NATIONWIDE IN 2028.

>> OKAY, SO I STARTED ASKING WHAT HAVE DEMOCRATS BEEN DOING WRONG, WHAT HAVE REPUBLICANS BEEN DOING RIGHT?

OR AT LEAST THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION --WHAT HAS PRESIDENT TRUMP AS A CANDIDATE, WHAT HAS HE BEEN DOING RIGHT TO PERSUADE THIS MANY PEOPLE HE'S ON THEIR SIDE?

>> FIRST, IT'S VERY CLEAR THAT TRUMP AS A PRESIDENT RIGHT NOW IS NOT FOLLOWING THROUGH ON HIS CAMPAIGN PROMISES.

HE'S NOT DELIVERING PEOPLE ON HIS WILDLY UNPOPULAR --PEOPLE ARE FURIOUS WHAT HE AND HIS KIND OF WHOLE MAGA TEAM IS DOING.

BUT HE DID WIN THE ELECTION, AND YOU HAVE TO ASK YOURSELF WHY THAT IS.

ESSENTIALLY THE PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T HEAR FROM EITHER CANDIDATE THEY KNEW IN THEIR GUT IT WASN'T WORKING AND THEY WERE THE PEOPLE WHO CHANGED THE DHANL.

AND THEY'RE ALREADY READY TO CHANGE THE CHANNEL AGAIN BECAUSE TRUMP HAS NOT DELIVER WHAT PEOPLE ARE ASKING FOR.

I THINK THERE'S A DEEPER DYSFUNCTION, THOUGH.

AND I THINK THE REPUBLICAN STRATEGY HAS FED INTO THIS DYSFUNCTION.

THE DYSFUNCTION IS THAT OUR GOVERNMENT IS RIGGED TO NOT DELIVER CHANGE THAT BENEFITS REGULAR FOLKS ECONOMICALLY.

THERE'S ALL THESE WAYS TO BE ABLE TO BLOCK IT.

YOU HAVE A U. S. SUPREME COURT THAT IS ESSENTIALLY CARRYING OUT A FAR-RIGHT INCORPORATED AJENLD ADAY BY DAY.

YOU HAVE A U. S. SENATE THAT HAS A FILIBUSTER THAT ALLOWS A HANDFUL OF SENATORS TO BLOCK, YOU KNOW, ANYTHING THAT THEY THINK MIGHT HELP THEM GAIN POWER IN THE NEXT ELECTION.

YOU HAVE A U. S. HOUSE THAT IS ULTRA-GERRYMANDERED.

YOU HAVE KRZS UNITED THAT ALLOWS UNLIMITED CORPORATE SPENDING.

THE EFFECT OF ALL OF THAT WHEN REPUBLICANS COME IN THEY CAN GIVE TAX CUTS TO THE RICH, THEY CAN APPOINT RIGHT WING JUDGES.

THOSE ARE THEIR TOP TWO AGENDA ITEMS, SO THE RIGHT GETS WHAT IT WANTS.

EVENTUALLY THINGS GO HAYWIRE.

PEOPLE VOTE DEMOCRATS INTO OFFICE AND DEMOCRATS CAN'T DELIVER ON BIG PARTS OF THEIR AGENDA.

SO VOTERS ASKING FOR CHANGE THEY CAN'T GET IT FROM DEMOCRATS BECAUSE THE SYSTEM IS BUILT TO BLOCK THE CHANGE.

AND WHEN REPUBLICANS COME IN, THEY CHANGES COME THEY DON'T LIKE.

AND THAT'S WHY WE HAVE CHANGE ELECTION AFTER CHANGE ELECTION WITHOUT THE CHANGES PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY CRYING OUT FOR.

THAT TO ME IS A FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM IN OUR SYSTEM.

AND A LOT OF THE FOCUS IN MY BOOK IS HOW WE UNRIG THE SYSTEM TO ALLOW DEMOCRACY TO ACTUALLY HAPPEN SO PEOPLE CAN GET WHAT THEY'RE VOTING FOR.

>> WHAT I'M CURIOUS ABOUT IS WHY HAVEN'T DEMOCRATS DONE A BETTER JOB OF MAKING THAT CASE?

YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT OBAMA, FOR EXAMPLE, I MEAN HE CAME IN WITH A MANDATE, NO QUESTION.

HE CAME IN WITH CONTROL OF BOTH HOUSES OF CONGRESS, BUT SOMEHOW HE DIDN'T SOLIDIFY THAT BY MAKING, YOU KNOW, VOTING RIGHTS, FOR EXAMPLE, A VOTING ISSUE.

BY MAKING THE SUPREME COURT A VOTING ISSUE, AND NEITHER DID JOE BIDEN.

WHY HAVE DEMOCRATS NOT DONE A BETTER JOB OF MAKING THESE VOTING ISSUES?

IF YOU COULD SEE THIS PATTERN, WHY CAN'T OTHER, YOU KNOW, NATIONAL DEMOCRATS?

>> SO MANY DEMOCRATS GET INVOLVED IN POLITICS, AND I KNOW THIS MIGHT SOUND INCREDIBLY IDEALISTIC TO PEOPLE WHO ARE CYNICAL AND I UNDERSTAND THE CYNICISM.

SO MANY DEMOCRATS GET INVOLVED, WHAT WAKES THEM UP EVERY DAY THEY WANT TO MAKE SURE KIDS CAN GET THE HEALTHCARE THEY NEED, THAT PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING TO DIE BECAUSE THEY CAN'T AFFORD THE COST OF AN INHALER.

I SAY THIS ONE OF MY MOM'S CLOSEST FRIENDS DIED OF AN ASTHMA ATTACK IN HER CAR.

SHE COULDN'T AFFORD IT.

PEOPLE VOTE ON HEALTHCARE.

THEY CAN SEE HOW BROKEN AND RIDICULOUS OUR HEALTHCARE CENTER IS.

IT'S A PROFIT CENTER RATHER THAN FOCUSED ON ENSURING PEOPLE CAN GET CARE WHEN THEY'RE SICK WITHOUT GOING BROKE.

AND SO WHEN DEMOCRATS COME IN IT IS OVERWHELMINGLY OVER AND OVER THE CASE THAT THE NUMBER ONE ISSUE THAT THEY PUSH THROUGH IS ECONOMIC POLICIES, HEALTHCARE POLICIES, AND THEY DON'T ADDRESS THE STRUCTURAL ISSUE BECAUSE THE STRUCTURE OF THE SYSTEM THAT'S THE STUFF THEY HAVE TO DIENLD OF GET THROUGH TO GET TO THE GOOD STUFF, WHICH IS REALLY DELIVERING POLICY CHANGE FOR PEOPLE.

FOR THE RIGHT THE FOCUS IS WINNING AND CONTROL.

SO WHEN REPUBLICANS COME IN YOU HAVE WHAT SCOTT WALKER DID IN MY STATE IN WISCONSIN.

HE GOT ELECTED AND IMMEDIATELY SMASHED UNIONS, RIGGED LEGISLATIVE MAPS, SUPPRESSED VOTES.

THE SAME THING THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS BEEN TRYING TO DO NATIONWIDE.

THEY TRY TO SHORT CIRCUIT DEMOCRACY WHILE THEY GIVE OUT TAX CUTS -- >> FRIENDLY AMENDMENT THERE.

SCOTT WALKER, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY BUSTED THE PUBLIC SERVICE UNIONS EXCEPT THE POLICE AND FIRE DEPARTMENTS.

>> EXCEPT THE POLICE AND FIRE DEPARTMENTS, THAT'S RIGHT.

FIRST HE WENT AFTER THE TEACHERS UNIONS, THE CIVIL SERVICE UNIONS OTHER THAN POLICE AND FIRE AND PRIVATE SECTOR UNION.

IT WAS DIVIDE AND CONQUER AS HE TOLD A BILLIONAIRE DONOR.

THAT WAS HIS STRATEGY.

NOW, THE QUESTION WHY DEMOCRATS CAN'T GET IT TOGETHER TO FOCUS ON THESE STRUCTURAL THINGS, OFTEN BY THE TIME THEY GET TO THEM THE POLITICAL CAPITAL IS SPENT, THEY'RE FOCUSED ON THE NEXT ELECTION.

SOMETIMES THEY CAN'T GET ENOUGH VOTES.

SOMETIMES DEMOCRATS JUST WANT TO BREATHE A SIGH OF RELIEF THAT THE DANGER IS OVER BECAUSE TRUMP WAS DEFEATED IN 2020.

THEY WANT TO MOVE ONTO OTHER THINGS.

I ARGUE IN THE BOOK I BELIEVE TO MY CORE THAT THE DEMOCRATS NEED TO FOCUS ON THESE STRUCTURAL THINGS.

AND IT'S NOT NECESSARILY THE CENTER PIECE OF THE CAMPAIGN TO SAY YOU'RE GOING TO PASS A NEW VOTING RIGHTS ACT, BUT IT HAS TO BE ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS THAT YOU DO.

AND IN THE HOUSE IT IS THE FIRST THING THAT THEY'VE DONE IN MULTIPLE SESSIONS OF CONGRESS IS PASS A MAJOR BLOCKBUSTER VOTING RIGHTS BILL THAT WOULD BAN PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING NATIONWIDE, BUT IT DIES IN THE U. S. SENATE.

THAT MEANS IF YOU NEED IT, IF YOU WANT IT TO BECOME LAW, THIS MIGHT SOUND HOPELESSLY WONKY TO PEOPLE WHO DON'T PAY ATTENTION TO POLITICS.

THEY WANT POLITICS TO LEAVE THEM ALONE.

IF YOU WANT TO ENSURE DEMOCRACY SURVIVES AND CAN BENEFIT REGULAR FOLKS WHEREBY, YOU HAVE TO CHANGE THE RULES OF THE FILIBUSTER AND I ARGUE REFORM THE SUPREME COURT WHICH IS PLAYING WHACK AA MOLE WITH VOTING RIGHTS.

>> THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WOULD SAY THE ISSUE IS TWO FOLD.

ONE THAT DEMOCRATS ARE AFRAID OF RACE, THAT THEY TREAT AFRICAN AMERICANS IN PARTICULARLY AND PERHAPS LATINOS AS WELL OR PEOPLE OF COLOR THE SAME WAY REPUBLICANS HAVE TREATED CHRISTIAN EVANGELICALS.

PLEASE DON'T BOTHER US THE REST OF THE YEAR, SO IT'S RAISED.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> I WOULD SAY THAT DEMOCRATS HAVE COME SO AGONIZINGLY CLOSE TO ACTUALLY GETTING THIS DONE, AND IN 2021 THERE WERE TWO U. S. SENATORS WHO WERE NOT READY TO CHANGE THE FILIBUSTER, WHICH, BY THE WAY, YOU KNOW, FOR THE FIRST 80 YEARS THE FILIBUSTER WAS ONLY EVER USED TO DEFEAT CIVIL RIGHTS LEGISLATION.

THAT THIS IS A COALITION PARTY WHERE THE VAST MAJORITY OF DEMOCRATS DO UNDERSTAND THE CENTRAL ROLE THAT RACISM AND RACIST ATTACKS HAVE PLAYED IN THE RIGHT'S DIVIDE AND CONQUER STRATEGY TO ENRICH THE RICH.

IT MEANS IN PRIMARY ELECTIONS THAT ARE HAPPENING ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND WILL HAPPEN AGAIN IN 2028, IF YOU'RE AN ENGAGED DEMOCRATIC VOTER, YOU'VE GOT TO ASK THE CANDIDATES WHETHER THEY'RE WILLING TO TAKE ACTION TO CHANGE THE SYSTEM ITSELF, TO ENSURE THAT NO MATTER YOUR RACE THAT EVERYONE ACTUALLY HAS A VOTE, THAT EVERYONE'S VOTE ACTUALLY COUNTS.

YOU HAVE TO ASK WHETHER THEY'RE WILLING TO CHANGE A SYSTEM THAT BENEFITS THE BIGGEST DONORS INSTEAD OF THE GENERAL PUBLIC.

BUT MOST DEMOCRATS ALREADY ARE.

WE ARE VERY CLOSE TO BEING ABLE TO GET WHERE WE NEED TO MAKE STRUCTURAL REFORMS.

>> I'M GOING TO ASK YOU YOU TO TELL US THE PLAN BECAUSE THIS IS THE TITLE OF YOUR BOOK "THIS IS THE PLAN. "

WHAT'S YOUR PLAN?

>> THE FIRST FIRE IN THIS MOMENT IS A GOVERNMENT THAT IS TESTING OUT WAYS TO SUBVERT DEMOCRACY ITSELF, TO STOP THE PUBLIC FROM BEING ABLE TO CHOOSE WHO WIELDS POWER, WHO HOLDS OFFICE.

AND THE MOST CRITICAL SAFEGUARD AGAINST AN AUTHORITARIAN ALL THE WAY BREAK THROUGH IN THIS COUNTRY IS ACTUALLY STATE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENTS IN 2026.

AND THE REASON FOR THAT IS THE CONSTITUTION PUTS THE CONTROL OF THE ELECTION SYSTEM INTO THE HANDS OF STATE GOVERNMENTS REGULATED BY FEDERAL LAW, BUT IT'S STATES THAT ADMINISTER ELECTIONS.

THIS HAS BEEN, YOU KNOW, THROUGHOUT OUR HISTORY THE KIND OF READ OUT OF SEGREGATIONISTS AND WHITE SUPREMACISTS.

PEOPLE HAVE TRIED TO BLOCK --YOU KNOW, ANYONE WHO DIDN'T LOOK LIKE DONALD TRUMP FROM BEING ABLE TO CAST A BALLOT.

BUT RIGHT NOW IT MEANS THAT IF DONALD TRUMP TRIES TO SEIZE THE VOTING MACHINES IN FULTON COUNTY, GEORGIA, IT'S ACTUALLY STATE OFFICIAL AND CAN BE STATE COURTS THAT CAN BLOCK THOSE KIND OF EFFORTS.

IT'S VERY CLEAR TRUMP IS FANTASIZING ABOUT DOING THIS.

HE'S TALKING ABOUT INVOKING, YOU KNOW, A NATIONAL STATE OF EMERGENCY, THE INSURRECTION ACT, BUT STATE GOVERNMENTS CAN BE THE LINE OF DEFENSE.

SO IN 2026 STEP ONE OF THE PLAN IS TO ENSURE THAT THE PEOPLE WHO WILL RUN THE ELECTIONS IN 2028 ARE PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN DEMOCRACY ITSELF.

AND THAT CAN MEAN KEISHA BOTTOMS AT GOVERNOR OF GEORGIA, DAVID CROWLEY AS GOVERNOR OF WISCONSIN, SECRETARIES OF STATE, IT MEANS SUPREME COURT JUSTICE.

THOSE ARE THE KEY DECISION-MAKER THAT WILL DETERMINE WHETHER DEMOCRACY GETS THROUGH THIS MOMENT OF EXTREME PERIL.

THAT'S STEP ONE.

STEP TWO IS IN 2028 FOR PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN EXPANDING DEMOCRACY TO WIN A FEDERAL TRIFECTA.

THE PRESIDENCY, THE U. S. HOUSE, THE U. S. SENATE.

STATES STILL MATTER ENORMOUSLY IN THAT MOMENT, BULLET THAT IS THE ONE CHANCE THAT WE HAVE COMING UP TO WIN A UNIFIED FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THAT TAKES THIS CRISIS SERIOUSLY.

AND THEN STEP THREE, IN 2029 EVERYONE WHO VOLUNTEER, WHO DONATED, WHO GOT INVOLVED, WHO VOTED TO ELECT THAT GOVERNMENT THAT WANTS TO ACTUALLY END AMERICA'S MELT DOWN, ALL THOSE PEOPLE NEED TO STAY MOBILIZED, TO PRESS THE GOVERNMENT TO ACTUALLY TAKE ACTION.

AND THAT MEANS ENDING THE FILIBUSTER, BANNING PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING.

I ARGUE FOR PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION IN THE U. S. HOUSE.

U. S. SUPREME COURT REFORM.

I THINK TERM LIMITS ON THE U. S. SUPREME COURT SO IT'S NOT KIND OF A LOCKED IN PARTISAN BODY IN THE WAY IT IS RIGHT NOW.

AND THEN THERE'S ALSO A PLAN TO TURN THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE INTO A KIND OF SIDESHOW BY GETTING STATES TO ENACT LAWS THAT MAKE THE WINNER OF THE NATIONAL POPULAR VOTE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

AND WHILE WE'RE AT IT, D. C. STATEHOOD, AND A REFERENDUM FOR STATEHOOD IN PUERTO RICO.

ALL THOSE POLICIES IF YOU TAKE THEM TOGETHER, THEY DISMANTLE THE SYSTEM OF CONTROL THAT THE RIGHT HAS IMPOSED ON A COUNTRY OVER A PERIOD OF DECADES AND MAKE EVERY VOTER IN THIS COUNTRY ACTUALLY HAVE A VOICE IN WHO IS THE U. S. HOUSE MAJORITY, THE U. S. SENATE MAJORITY, WHO BECOMES THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

AND IT ALLOWS STATES AND THE PRESIDENT TO PASS LAWS WITHOUT HAVING A U. S. SUPREME COURT THAT ONLY STRIKES DOWN LAWS AND EXECUTIVE ACTIONS WHEN THEY'RE DONE BY DEMOCRATS.

>> BEN WIKLER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, MICHEL >> AND FINALLY A BOX SEAT AT THE PROMS WITH ONE OF THE WORLD'S GREATEST CONDUCTORS.

HE'S IN LONDON FOR THIS YEAR'S ANNUAL CLASSICAL MUSIC FESTIVAL AT THE ROYAL ALBERT HALL.

AND WHEN I SAT DOWN WITH HIM THIS WEEK HE TOLD ME ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF FINDING JOY AND HARMONY IN LIFE.

>> FOR MYSELF IN THIS NOISY WORLD, WHAT IS MY EXERCISE EVERY DAY?

YOU KNOW, TO BALANCE MY HARMONY.

EVERY DAY, YOU KNOW, I TAKE MY TIME TO BE IN SILENCE BUT NOT IN SILENCE COMPLETELY LIKE A SILENCE THAT WE UNDERSTAND.

IT'S A LOT OF SOUNDS, IT'S LOT OF VOICES THERE, AND HOW I CAN BALANCE THAT.

HOW I CAN SAY SOMETHING THAT --THAT MAYBE CAN HEAL AND NOT DESTROY.

>> AND YOU CAN WATCH THE FULL INTERVIEW WITH THE MAESTRO ON THE PROGRAM TOMORROW.

THAT'S IT FOR US TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ALL THE TIME ON THE SHOW, YOU CAN JUST CHECK IN WITH OUR NEWSLETTER, SIGN UP FOR IT AT PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.