GEOFF BENNETT: During this government# shutdown, President Trump is turning## his attention to funding earmarked# for projects in Democratic states.

To break down the implications and offer some# perspective, we're joined tonight by Brooks## and Capehart.

That's New York Times columnist# David Brooks and Jonathan Capehart of MSNBC.

It's always great to see you both.

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Hey, Geoff.

GEOFF BENNETT: So, Jonathan,.. Democrats are now backing this one.

Senator# Schumer, who was on this program back in March,## he said the country avoided disaster when# he voted to keep the government open.

Republicans are calling that out and saying# it's hypocritical.

In your view, why isn't it?

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Well, one,# we're talking about a shutdown## caused by Republicans not wanting to# do something on health care.

I mean,## you can argue whether this is the time to do it.# Democrats have decided this is the time to do it,## especially since letters are going out next# month to consumers on the American -- the## Affordable Care Act exchanges that# their premiums are going to go up.

And then they're going to go up starting in# the new year.

And so Democrats are saying,## well, we have got to do something to help the# American people.

And Republicans basically## say no.

And -- I'm sorry.

At the same time# that they're saying no, they're also saying,## just trust us.

Let's just reopen the# government and then we will talk about this.

The problem with that is, one, Democrats don't# trust them, nor should they.

Two, there are so## many other things that Republicans have to --# that Congress has to get done in the seven weeks## before the end of the year, the NDAA, which is# a must pass defense bill, appropriations bills.

Punchbowl reported this morning that there# have been no talks between Democrats and## Republicans about the appropriations# bills that will be needed to fund the## government once they get past this.

And# so you think that Republicans -- that## Democrats should trust Republicans that# they're going to take care of it later?

No.

And so I think that we can argue# whether this is a good time to do this## and whether Democrats should do it.# I argue Democrats absolutely should## do it because they're doing# it for all the right reasons.

GEOFF BENNETT: And one of those reasons Democrats# say is about extending Obamacare subsidies,## with premiums set to skyrocket.# Senator Raphael Warnock of Georgia,## he shared this example on social media.

A Georgian earning $65,000 a year# would see premiums jump from about## $300 a month to over $950 a month.

And, David, shouldn't the# party that controls the House,## the Senate and the White House do more# to end a shutdown than just dig in?

DAVID BROOKS: No.

(LAUGHTER) DAVID BROOKS: I hate the fact that# .. In 2020, the Democrats win an election and they# have power.

And so, in 2021, they passed a bill## which further increased the health insurance# subsidies as part of Obamacare.

And when they## did it, they passed it to sunset in 2025.

In 2024,# the Republicans win an election.

And guess what?## They passed legislation that go with their policy# priorities and they let the subsidies sunset.

And so what do you do if you're in# a democracy?

You go to the voters if## you're a Democrat and you say, their policy# is terrible.

What Senator Warnock just said,## their policy is terrible.

Next time, why don't# you vote for us?

That's how a democracy functions.

But apparently we don't live in a# functioning democracy anymore.

Now,## if we don't like the policy that the majority# party passes, we shut down the government.## And I'm not blaming Democrats solely.

But I# just think this pattern is so terrible for our## democracy, is so terrible, what we just heard from# the traffic controllers, and every organization.

You can imagine if your own organization suddenly# lost all funding every once in a while.

And## what it does is it further erodes the# norms that really control our democracy## so we don't -- we're not -- we can have a boxing# match in politics.

Politics ain't beanbag.

But## we don't bring a knife.

We don't bring a gun.# And we don't bring AK-47, whatever it would be.

And that's what our politics is descending# into.

And it's very bad for democracy.

GEOFF BENNETT: Elections have consequences.

JONATHAN CAPEHART: They do have consequences,## but descending into?

We're there.# I mean, that road .. I mean, you could -- if you want to go back# in history, let's talk about eroding norms.## Senator Mitch McConnell, when he was majority# leader, stole a Supreme Court seat and said## it should be up to the American people to decide# the next president, and that person gets to pick## the Supreme Court justice, successfully# kept it from then-Judge Merrick Garland.

But then, when the shoe was on the other foot# and President Trump was in the White House,## what did he do?

Ram threw Justice# Amy Coney Barrett a week before## the election.

So we're already deep# into this rutted place that we're in.

DAVID BROOKS: Wait two months.

(LAUGHTER) GEOFF BENNETT: Is ther.. care?

Because that helped them flip, what was# it, 40 seats back in 2018 when the Republicans## tried to repeal the Affordable Care Act.

Does# that resonate the same way in the shutdown?

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Well, I think it will resonate,# maybe not in the short term, but I think,## politically speaking, just in crass political# terms, that when those letters go out next month,## and then when the premium skyrockets, so when# people get those bills starting in January,## folks will forget about the shutdown,# assuming the government has been reopened.

But they will remember, oh, wait,# Democrats were hammering away at this,## they were complaining about this# during that time.

And I think, again,## in crass political terms, this could# inure to Democrats' benefit, could.

GEOFF BENNETT: If you were# advising the White House,## the David Brooks consultancy,# what would you tell them to do?

(LAUGHTER) GEOFF BENNETT: How should they handle this?

DAVID BROOKS: I would tell them al.. DAVID BROOKS: But I put myself in their# shoes, not what David Brooks want.. as important as that is, but what MAGA wants.

And so they're part of a conservative# movement that for the last 50 years has## said government is too big, the left# has too much control.

And they have## wanted to defund the left since Ronald# Reagan.

And they haven't really done it.

Donald Trump comes in terms two and starts to# do it under DOGE.

That sort of calms down after## Elon Musk leaves town and all the tech bros go# back to Silicon Valley.

But now Russell Vought,## the budget director, is going to restart the# engines.

And he's going to restart them in## a way that we have never seen before.

He's# been waiting his whole life at this moment.

And I do not think that giving him the# keys to the kingdom is a smart idea.

But## if you're MAGA and you have been trying to# pursue a 40-year project to defund the left,## you're going to take advantage of this moment.# And so a lot of people are going to lose their## jobs who are in -- and what MAGA gets right# is that the civil service is somewhat left.

But what they get wrong is, they're not very left.# Most of them are good, hardworking, honest people## who just want to do their job.

And Russell# Vought is about to take a chain saw to them.

GEOFF BENNETT: What about# that, Jonathan, the president,## Russ Vought seeing opportunity in this moment?

I think President Trump used the phrase# unprecedented opportunity to dismantle## government, to defund the left, as David says.

JONATHAN CAPEHART: They're already# doing it.

They have been doing it.## They have already promised to,# what, fire 140,000 workers.

And so they're taking advantage of# a crisis.

Anyone who thinks that## the administration from the president to# Russell Vought, that they will have some## sort of pang of conscience and keep federal# workers where they are fooling themselves.

It's right there in Project 2025, the 900-page# document that then-candidate Trump tried to## disavow and said, I have nothing to do with it,# and then this week, if not yesterday, sends out## a TRUTH Social posts saying, Russell Vought# is going to do this, he of Project 2025 fame.

Anyone who has watched -- who has read# Project 2025 is not surprised by anything## that has happened since January 20.# It's right there in black and white.

GEOFF BENNETT: One of the most striking moments## of the weekend of President Trump's second# term so far was .. of top military brass.

You had the president,# the defense secretary gathered in Virginia.

Pete Hegseth, the defense secretary, said# the goal was to restore the warrior ethos.## The president spoke for more than an hour.# Here's some of what the -- both of them said.

PETE HEGSETH, U.S.

Defense Secretary: The# era of politically correct, overly sensitive,## don't hurt anyone's feelings leadership# ends right now.

No more identity months,## DEI offices, dudes in dresses.

No# more climate change worship.

It's## tiring to look out at combat formations or# really any formation and see fat troops.

DONALD TRUMP, President of the United# States: Well, America is under invasion## from within.

We're under invasion from# within.

We were not respected with Biden.## They looked at him falling downstairs every# day.

Every day, the guy's falling downstairs.## We should use some of these dangerous# cities as training grounds for our military.

GEOFF BENNETT: What lessons should we# draw from that?

Are there any parallels## to the way the president, the defense# secretary are seeking to use the military?

DAVID BROOKS: Well, it's all show business.

These two guys are TV personalities, not# that there's anything wrong with that.## But they're using the troops as# show business.

And what do they## care about when they think about the# Department of Defense or whatever we're## calling it these days?

They think about# dudes in dresses, DEI and fat troops.

China is not thinking about that stuff.

They# are outdeploying us in submarines.

They're## outdeploying us in military technology.

They have# got more troops.

They have got more spending.

And## they are a world threat.

And if something terrible# happens in the last two years, next two years,## people are going to look at this rally and say,# what the hell were those guys talking about?

And, to me, it's just the# incredible shallowness and## triviality of that kind of showbiz performance.

GEOFF BENNETT: Is this the moment that accelerates## the erosion of the longstanding# norm of an apolitical military?

JONATHAN CAPEHART: I don't know if it's# the moment, simply because I think maybe## the president wanted to jump in on this# meeting because he's used to going to## the military academies, where the troops# are a little less trained in how they're## supposed to act and respond to political# speeches and particularly to the president.

And I seem to remember, I think it was the Naval# Academy, where you had the cadets behind him## hooting and hollering and cheering and applauding# and laughing.

But the folks in that room at the## Pentagon were not cadets.

They were generals# and admirals with decades' worth of experience.

And they know that their job is to be apolitical,# no matter who the president is.

And the series of## one-liners that they both threw out there thinking# they were going to get applause, and they didn't,## certainly unsettled the president,# probably unsettled the defense secretary.

But it didn't unsettle me,## because it showed -- it told me that# the senior leadership of the military,## the folks in uniform still hold true to their# training and what their role is in our democracy.

And I don't want to let one of the comments# that was said in that SOT mash of the president## where he said he's -- we're going to use# the American cities as training grounds,## the most dangerous thing I have heard among# many things come out of the president's mouth,## that he's telling those admirals and# generals that they should have their troops,## who are trained to fight wars and kill other# people in other countries on battlegrounds,## that they should turn their# guns on American citizens.

It's appalling, and I wish we had a Congress# that worked that would say, you know what,## we need to bring some people in# and have some hearings on this,## because this is unacceptable.

It's# undemocratic.

It's un-American.

GEOFF BENNETT: And I was# going to raise that point,## the incitement to violence against# Americans fr.. DAVID BROOKS: Yes, I happen to live right# where the National Guardsmen are walking## around every day.

And I, frankly, don't# mind them.

They're nice.

They look bored.

But Jonathan is right on the overall# message.

There's a reason military## people are not police people.

And police are# making a mistake of trying to be too military,## frankly.

And so to cross that line, where you have# people who are actually trained to shoot howitzers## walking around Park Avenue or Grant Park in# Chicago, it's just -- it's crossing a line.

GEOFF BENNETT: David Brooks, Jonathan# Capehart, have a good weekend.

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Thanks, Geoff.

You too.